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Punching Your Way To Victory - Ruina & Defensio Pve Guide


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#21 iKissa

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 10:14 AM

I feel that Leap Over is bad skill even for Defensio. (sorry)
Thinking to take Flying Knee Kick instead, with -AS plate, it should work better especially with the Overcharge.

#22 Haru18

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 10:30 AM

View Postmelonee, on 28 December 2015 - 01:53 AM, said:

I usually just use step up or rock away to start ducking, but now that you say it taunting blow seems like a even better opening

IMO the best opener is body check or taunting blow. Because when you gear step up after duck the animation is immediately on the end part of the gear step (this affects rock away and foot stomp the most).

Also do note that even you didn't explode the taunting blow you can explode it later after the taunting blow off cd or after you use repair and reuse the taunting blow which resulting  3 more hit per mark on the target. Note applying new mark doesn't refresh the mark duration on target

View Postmelonee, on 27 December 2015 - 11:41 AM, said:

Either
A.) Taunting Blow > Right Click > Step up
or
B.) Taunting Blow > Duck > Step up

into - Leap Over > Cancel mid air with space > Beyond the Wall > Left Click > Cancel the Flyback with another Left Click > Beat Down EXi > Normal Attacks > if Step up is not off cooldown yet trigger ducking with any skill or use Repair > Step Up > Beat Down > Normal Attacks
=

A.) Taunting Blow > Right Click > Step up
B.) Taunting Blow > Space > Space
into - > Right Click > Space > Beyond the Wall > Left Click > Left Click > Beat Down EXi > Left Click Spam > Step Up / Duck+Space > Left Click > Left Click Spam

Add filler skills etc. to one's own taste.


You can combo the duck into knee or kidney instead of leap over. Also after the normal attack move I usually just trigger charging gear to enter the duck sequence again instead of starting with gear step up again (you can release CG early and still be able to enter the duck sequence if you think the charging'll take too long)

Edited by Haru18, 28 December 2015 - 10:47 AM.


#23 melonee

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 10:48 AM

View PostiKissa, on 28 December 2015 - 10:14 AM, said:

I feel that Leap Over is bad skill even for Defensio. (sorry)
Thinking to take Flying Knee Kick instead, with -AS plate, it should work better especially with the Overcharge.

The only reason i take and max it on Defensio is because it's just such a good combo starter / filler skill for her.
You can deal decent damage while getting in the air which is the perfect position to combo into beyond the wall into beat down exi etc.

View PostHaru18, on 28 December 2015 - 10:30 AM, said:

IMO the best opener is body check or taunting blow. Because when you gear step up after duck the animation is immediately on the end part of the gear step (this affects rock away and foot stomp the most).

Also do note that even you didn't explode the taunting blow you can explode it later after the taunting blow off cd or after you use repair and reuse the taunting blow which resulting  3 more hit per mark on the target. Note applying new mark doesn't refresh the mark duration on target



You can combo the duck into fishK or kidney instead of leap over. Also after the normal attack move I usually just trigger charging gear to enter the duck sequence again instead of starting with gear step up again (you can release CG early and still be able to enter the duck sequence if you think the charging'll take too long)

i feel like i'd lose too much damage of kidney/knee kick without normal attacks, and you really just need ~6 hits of leap over to outdamage both, but it's definitely a good alternative!

makes sense, didn't think about using charging gear to get into ducking, gonna add that later thanks!

Edited by melonee, 28 December 2015 - 11:03 AM.


#24 Haru18

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 11:06 AM

View Postmelonee, on 28 December 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

i feel like i'd lose too much damage of kidney/knee kick without normal attacks, and you really just need ~6 hits of leap over to outdamage both, but it's definitely a good alternative!

makes sense, didn't think about using charging gear to get into ducking, gonna add that later thanks!

Yes at first I thought exactly like you. We'd lose so much damage if we blow kidney or knee to the rotation but think it like this
  • dps window for boss can be around 5-30s
  • our BD's cd only 11s same with BD EXi
  • taunt / body check > duck > step up > leap over > BtW > BD exi > normal attack. This sequence need approximately 7-8s to execute (if you're ruina, you can switch BtW > BD exi with normal BD with a bit more faster execution)
  • If you use combo like mine. Taunt > duck > rock > knee/kidney > BtW > BD exi > normal attack. After I used this combo my BtW almost off cd (no plate)
So with that factor in mind when do we can squeeze knee and kidney when our Best DPS move almost always ready. That's why I considered if I can squeeze that knee and kidney in my sequence that CD won't be wasted and defensio also has repair to reduce the skill's cd

#25 melonee

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 11:14 AM

View PostHaru18, on 28 December 2015 - 11:06 AM, said:

Yes at first I thought exactly like you. We'd lose so much damage if we blow kidney or knee to the rotation but think it like this
  • dps window for boss can be around 5-30s
  • our BD's cd only 11s same with BD EXi
  • taunt / body check > duck > step up > leap over > BtW > BD exi > normal attack. This sequence need approximately 7-8s to execute (if you're ruina, you can switch BtW > BD exi with normal BD with a bit more faster execution)
  • If you use combo like mine. Taunt > duck > rock > knee/kidney > BtW > BD exi > normal attack. After I used this combo my BtW almost off cd (no plate)
So with that factor in mind when do we can squeeze knee and kidney when our Best DPS move almost always ready. That's why I considered if I can squeeze that knee and kidney in my sequence that CD won't be wasted and defensio also has repair to reduce the skill's cd

True that but that's why i maxed and plated leap over so i can deal more damage than with a forced in knee/kidney.
But you're right, i rarely use those two skills on defensio, they act more as filler skills or when i feel like it's too dangerous/slow to use beat down.

#26 Haru18

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 11:14 AM

Btw you can achieve weird spot with BtW (:D) (:D)
Posted Image

#27 Haru18

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 11:25 AM

View Postmelonee, on 28 December 2015 - 11:14 AM, said:

True that but that's why i maxed and plated leap over so i can deal more damage than with a forced in knee/kidney.
But you're right, i rarely use those two skills on defensio, they act more as filler skills or when i feel like it's too dangerous/slow to use beat down.

Kidney has 21s cd
Leap over has 20s cd
Knee has 10s cd
BD EXi has 11s cd
BD EX has 11s cd

So if we take a 20s combo rotation it would be something like
  • taunt > duck > (rock > knee/kidney) or (step up > leap)Let say we choose leap over here  > BtW > BD EXi > normal attack > CG (approx 8s execution)
  • continue with taunt > explode > body check > rock > kidney/knee > BD EX > normal attack > CG (approx 9-10s execution)
  • By the time we want to execute another BD EXi again we still have 1 skill to combo with the flying part and our leap over almost off cd so we can keep juggle those 3 skill forever in pair with BD EX and EXi (assuming you can keep dps)
Note I put high priority to normal attack after BD either EX or EXi due to distinguish high damage nature of the normal attack

Edit wording

Edited by Haru18, 28 December 2015 - 11:46 AM.


#28 iKissa

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 11:30 AM

View Postmelonee, on 28 December 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

The only reason i take and max it on Defensio is because it's just such a good combo starter / filler skill for her.
You can deal decent damage while getting in the air which is the perfect position to combo into beyond the wall into beat down exi etc.
Well it might be personal preference but usually i open up like what Haru said. Leap Over damage is just meh and take time to cast. Beside that, I feel Defensio is fine to off combo and just jump and cast BtW if needed.

I still have maxed Leap Over actually and i can say if the aim is damage, even lv 1 Flying Knee Kick gives comparable damage (with just normal attack without charge).

#29 melonee

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 11:33 AM

View PostiKissa, on 28 December 2015 - 11:30 AM, said:

Well it might be personal preference but usually i open up like what Haru said. Leap Over damage is just meh and take time to cast. Beside that, I feel Defensio is fine to off combo and just jump and cast BtW if needed.

I still have maxed Leap Over actually and i can say if the aim is damage, even lv 1 Flying Knee Kick gives comparable damage (with just normal attack without charge).

Yeah it's personal preference and i just realised that on small mobs it's indeed smarter to start off with kidney blow since you won't be able to get 6 hits reliably.

On bigger mobs leap over does deal more damage tho, every time you get 6 or more hits it will deal more damage than kidney blow/knee kick (note, only as a combo starter, if you talk about damage with normal attacks kidney/knee will outdamage leap over)
The casting time of those two (as a combo starter) is also really similar and personally i find it easier to chain BtW after Leap Over instead of Kidney since the air time is longer.

But as i said, at the end it's personal preference (and if you aim for the highest damage output at all times then it also depends on the mob size/position)

edited that part , thank you (:])

Edited by melonee, 28 December 2015 - 11:56 AM.


#30 Haru18

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 11:46 AM

Edited brain derp just now (:D) (:D)

#31 melonee

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 11:57 AM

View PostHaru18, on 28 December 2015 - 11:46 AM, said:

Edited brain derp just now %20br=


edit:

View PostHaru18, on 28 December 2015 - 11:25 AM, said:

Kidney has 21s cd
Leap over has 20s cd
Knee has 10s cd
BD EXi has 11s cd
BD EX has 11s cd

So if we take a 20s combo rotation it would be something like
  • taunt > duck > (rock > knee/kidney) or (step up > leap)Let say we choose leap over here  > BtW > BD EXi > normal attack > CG (approx 8s execution)
  • continue with taunt > explode > body check > rock > kidney/knee > BD EX > normal attack > CG (approx 9-10s execution)
  • By the time we want to execute another BD EXi again we still have 1 skill to combo with the flying part and our leap over almost off cd so we can keep juggle those 3 skill forever in pair with BD EX and EXi (assuming you can keep dps)
Note I put high priorl attack
ity to normal attack after BD either EX or EXi due to distinguish high damage nature of the norma
Edit wording

Oh yeah i didn't even think about that... i was usually just spamming step up into beat down manually and left kidney/knee behind.

This seems like the better option, will just have to calculate whether using kidney/knee deals more damage than the command enhancement on beat down (alternatively you can just duck > step up > beat down after kidney/knee (shame) this will definitely deal me damage br=
thank you for your input! (:]) edited that part again in the guide, all the newest information should be included now.

Edited by melonee, 28 December 2015 - 12:04 PM.


#32 iKissa

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 12:09 PM

Actually what i want to say is that i feel Defensio (unlike Ruina) is perfectly fine to off combo.

Usually i open up with either of these 2 :
  • Taunt > Left / Right Click > Jump > BtW > BD EXi > continue
  • Jump > BtW > BD EXi > Normal Attack (if possible) > Taunt > continue
I feel that it's more important to cast those 2 in front which is why personally Leap Over don't have spot to fill in as starter. We also have Repair so we can use heavy skill more often as well.

#33 melonee

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 12:13 PM

View PostiKissa, on 28 December 2015 - 12:09 PM, said:

Actually what i want to say is that i feel Defensio (unlike Ruina) is perfectly fine to off combo.

Usually i open up with either of these 2 :
  • Taunt > Left / Right Click > Jump > BtW > BD EXi > continue
  • Jump > BtW > BD EXi > Normal Attack (if possible) > Taunt > continue
I feel that it's more important to cast those 2 in front which is why personally Leap Over don't have spot to fill in as starter. We also have Repair so we can use heavy skill more often as well.


Yeah that of course works too but if you want to squeeze out as much damage as possible it's better to chain the skills instead (:])

#34 Haru18

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 12:19 PM

View PostiKissa, on 28 December 2015 - 12:09 PM, said:

Actually what i want to say is that i feel Defensio (unlike Ruina) is perfectly fine to off combo.

Usually i open up with either of these 2 :
  • Taunt > Left / Right Click > Jump > BtW > BD EXi > continue
  • Jump > BtW > BD EXi > Normal Attack (if possible) > Taunt > continue
I feel that it's more important to cast those 2 in front which is why personally Leap Over don't have spot to fill in as starter. We also have Repair so we can use heavy skill more often as well.

This rotation is good IF you prioritize tanking than damaging part of defensio. But as far as i tested defensio's taunt seems a bit weird about aggro thing (this is my 1st tank char in DN so I need more input here about it) That's why I take more a dps role with sub tank in mind.

I thought we can just off combo unlike ruina. But after I saw that even defensio inherit the damage transfer (especially after BD) I jellied to combo more and here I am (:>) (:D)

Edit
Also if you just skip your combo like that you missed the 25% AS buff from gear step

Edited by Haru18, 28 December 2015 - 12:23 PM.


#35 iKissa

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 12:24 PM

View PostHaru18, on 28 December 2015 - 12:19 PM, said:

This rotation is good IF you prioritize tanking than damaging part of defensio. But as far as i tested defensio's taunt seems a bit weird about aggro thing (this is my 1st tank char in DN so I need more input here about it) That's why I take more a dps role with sub tank in mind.

I thought we can just off combo unlike ruina. But after I saw that even defensio inherit the damage transfer (especially after BD) I jellied to combo more and here I am (:>) (:D)  
Well actually that is just open up combo. After that i just do like what u said

View PostHaru18, on 28 December 2015 - 11:25 AM, said:

  • taunt > duck > rock > kidney > normal attack > jump > BtW > BD EXi > normal attack > CG (approx 8s execution)
  • continue with taunt > explode > body check > rock > knee (> normal attack > step up) > BD EX > normal attack > CG (approx 9-10s execution)
  • By the time we want to execute another BD EXi again we still have 1 skill to combo with the flying part and our leap over almost off cd so we can keep juggle those 3 skill forever in pair with BD EX and EXi (assuming you can keep dps)
Except that i rarely use Leap Over and go with Rock > Kidney then Rock > Knee Kick. More like safety comes first. (:D)
Once we enter the combo phase, we should be able to maintain it both aggro and bubble.

Edited by iKissa, 28 December 2015 - 12:33 PM.


#36 Haru18

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 12:30 PM

Oh i thought you don't combo at all. My bad then (sorry)

If you want safety 1st I think BtW left click cancel before walk to the boss work better

About those 3 filler skill. It seems preference matter the most of it. Personally I prefer kidney than leap too (:])

#37 gianne07

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 02:32 PM

how about recommended skill accessories?

#38 Efraym

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 07:48 PM

I was waiting for this. I have no idea what plates to use either. (:D)

#39 kambinks

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 07:57 PM

I hear for Lancea's because Erratic Power gives 60+% FD they avoid +DMG plates by default because of diminishing returns. Shouldn't Ruina's consider the same considering Overboost gives 50% FD (not sure if Defensios have the same buff)

I think I get how Diminishing Return works but not sure how it fits into the context of our damage dealing.

#40 melonee

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 09:14 PM

View Postgianne07, on 28 December 2015 - 02:32 PM, said:

how about recommended skill accessories?

There isn't really any must have skill accessories...maybe flying knee kick if you want to get it to 21 with the skill up plate
i guess beyond the wall wouldn't be too bad, maybe follow through if you have it maxed.

Have yet to test whether ducking +7 makes a difference (but i guess it shouldn't) so...well..

View Postkambinks, on 28 December 2015 - 07:57 PM, said:

I hear for Lancea's because Erratic Power gives 60+% FD they avoid +DMG plates by default because of diminishing returns. Shouldn't Ruina's consider the same considering Overboost gives 50% FD (not sure if Defensios have the same buff)

I think I get how Diminishing Return works but not sure how it fits into the context of our damage dealing.

Oh another thing i didn't consider... but then again it won't make a real difference in skill plate choices for me personally anyway since as i said i prefer action speed plates on most skills.
On stuff like beat down even if there is a dimishing return, it's still a boost in damage (a smaller boost than it would be on other classes without fd buffs, but a boost!)

Thanks for pointing it out tho! I might actually mention it too! (:])

Edited by melonee, 28 December 2015 - 09:16 PM.