Jump to content


Defensio Confirmed Worst Class Of The Game By Devs


  • Please log in to reply
49 replies to this topic

#1 Rokes

Rokes

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 754 posts
  • PROkes
  • DN, Desmodeus
  • PROjectX

Posted 14 April 2016 - 05:15 PM

I mean, I leveled a defensio yesterday just to run RDN and I found it completely trash for RDN.

I mean I play weekly Guardian and I have tanked with Crusader and when I went as Defensio, It was the worst possible experience.

Here are my thoughts:

1. Provoke is a fķing melee skill, you dont have short dashes to stick to the boss so when he pusses you or you jump backwards there is no way to going back to retain agro.

2.Beyond The Wall is just cancer. Long casting, can fail, doesnt hit ppl under you or behind, sometimes doesnt even hit ppl in front. I am not expert BTWer, but roughyly out of 100 BTWs:

30 would jusr fail
50 would hit 1-2 players
15 would hit 3-4 players
And only 5 would hit 5+players

And worst thing is a fķing 10 second duration for 10(8) CD, so even if you are God and hit multiple players everytime its just 10 second protection.

3. Damage reduction comes from the same skill as the one that gives shield, Beyond The Wall, and you have to actually hit the booss to get the damage reduction which means not casting it to grant shield to your teammates, you have to freaking choose between giving shield or reduce damage.

4. Ultimate is just LMAO. Casted it in jasmine after blue, Jasmine did red, buff cleared the summons and transfered all that damage to me so instadeath.

There is so much wrong with this class that I dont even where to start.

Is there any pro defensio video or something I could be doing wrong? Or is the class just the worst class of the game?

Edited by Rokes, 24 April 2016 - 08:22 PM.


#2 Domokun

Domokun

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 21 posts
  • ChronRin
  • DN, Springwood
  • N/A

Posted 14 April 2016 - 05:34 PM

(no) feels bad man.

Im here awaiting for answers as well, thinking about putting my current Defensio aside and start other characters,

experience playing her is pretty okay but its always confusing about what to do

not a dedicated DPS neither a dedicated tank (shame)

#3 Schiz

Schiz

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 121 posts

Posted 14 April 2016 - 06:41 PM

If the +20% damage buff works on the party (didn't bother testing cause I dont have the skill), defensio ultimate is a safe burst phase ulti, one of the biggest buff to the party in terms of dmg. You don't want to use it to tank if you're not confident in your party but most importantly if there are summon wipe mechanics that involve summons taking damage when they die. And in general, summons can't dodge. It's good in a party without GM/bringer/saint (Yeah very common ikr) but otherwise you and most importantly your party really need to know what you're doing before casting the skill.

Defensio is NOT a tank. Guardian is the tank. End of story. Post revamp destroyer will also be a tank with pros and cons to evaluate that could make it as good if not better (i.e. party without breaking point) than guardian. Defensio will not, unless we get some massive rework on beyond the wall (for example, it needs both faster casting of the SA shield AND "largely increased range if you hit the enemy" or something like that on the EX. Guardian force is literally instantaneous, Charging howl is very fast, BtW is utter garbage).

You're not supposed to dodge if you're tanking btw, just practice air shoving on anything blockable and if you get burned and are away from cure relic or whatever, you got OP repair.

As for defensio role

You want an extra superarmor shield that doesn't get buff wiped? Or a 10% FD buff? You play machina, not defensio. Both can do it. It's not a bad thing to have, it's pretty much the perfect skill for dark room since everyone is packed close together and it doesn't get wiped if you get hit once.

After that, if you want a damage dealer and elem. resist debuffer you take ruina.
If you want a no damage dealer that can provide perma def buff and overtime heal by jumping around and blocking, and also provide backup provoke, you take defensio.

We got the machina rework which basically means better dmg and gameplay for ruina, and huge dmg nerf for defensio. Old defensio would still be viable because the damage was more than ok for a support oriented class. Beat Down EX into 4 "powered up" normal hits every 10 sec doing 20-40m each or so depending on gear was nothing to laugh at. Now you only do 1 normal hit after beat down/leap over before going into charging gear, which is crap without the ruina passive. That's why defensio feels (and is) so underwhelming right now.

Any defensio that's not full RDNL is pretty much asking to get carried, theres almost no reason to take one over ruina sadly since the balance went for "more utility less damage" to "more utility WAY less damage"

Edited by Schiz, 14 April 2016 - 06:57 PM.


#4 Rokes

Rokes

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 754 posts
  • PROkes
  • DN, Desmodeus
  • PROjectX

Posted 14 April 2016 - 07:51 PM

Thing is defensio is supposed to be a tank: Provoke, Guardian Force, Damage reduction debuff...

Thing is since the Guardian Force is so bad as well as provoke and the damage reduction, I even feel like Crusader can do a better job.

Another thing I wanted to note down, is the Air Shove procs do not refresh nor stack each other as in if you have 3 seconds left on previous buff, blocking and proccing will not reset it and its gonna be gone...

Defensio is fun to play, way more fun than ruina CG spam, but its just not worth at all to play her, and the worst thing is that we have the already revamped version of it, so its not getting better at all.

Ultimate does not affect yourself at all, gotta test it on teammates to see if it does something other than transfer damage. Also you cannot use it on RDN at all:

1st boss sudden stomp will kill you or bar mech burning summons.

2nd boss bar mech can kill you

3rd boss random buff clearing charge can kill you

4th Jasmine blue/red can kill you

5th Deathknight stomp/Surprise/bar mech can kill you

6th BDN everything can kill you

7th RDN dont even know but probably any **** can kill you

Edited by Rokes, 14 April 2016 - 08:00 PM.


#5 Schiz

Schiz

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 121 posts

Posted 14 April 2016 - 08:06 PM

tried with teammates now and does nothing, I guess it just means you TAKE extra 20% more dmg or something

#6 LuziArt

LuziArt

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 36 posts
  • Arteey
  • DN, Desmodeus
  • ProjectX

Posted 14 April 2016 - 10:12 PM

View PostRokes, on 14 April 2016 - 07:51 PM, said:

Ultimate does not affect yourself at all, gotta test it on teammates to see if it does something other than transfer damage. Also you cannot use it on RDN at all:

1st boss sudden stomp will kill you or bar mech burning summons.

2nd boss bar mech can kill you

3rd boss random buff clearing charge can kill you

4th Jasmine blue/red can kill you

5th Deathknight stomp/Surprise/bar mech can kill you

6th BDN everything can kill you

7th RDN dont even know but probably any **** can kill you

The only good situation to use it is Dark Room, but it almost can kill u fast If yea... . Played Defensio 1 week than changed to Ruina. :S

#7 iBob

iBob

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 24 posts

Posted 15 April 2016 - 05:07 AM

I didnt test any of this and i cant since i Play ruina

i mostly want to give some hints on what u might have not noticed or might have overseen.

about beyond the wall:

Ruina uses it too. And it also often appears to me that i do not seem to buff everyone i grab. BUT i noticed they do get a 10 seconds buff when i grab them, even if the visual shield is not applied. I dont know if that means they got the defense buff but not the shield, or if it simply means there is a visual bug.

As for taunting blow:

I only read the skill descriptions which tell me that u consantly provoke as Long as u do not explode the mark it sets. So u gotta run to the mob, taunt it, kite and beyond the wall every one and block in between for the buff bubbles on the ground, explode the mark for dmg and taunt again.

Like i said i dont know if im talking total bullcrap here since i did not Play Defensio but maybe theres something in there which might help or give another Point of view to her usage.

Maybe shes just meant to be something like a subtank Support... for when the guardina gets the mark on 2nd boss but defensio doesnt, she can just go and provoke it away from guard.
In the meantime she provides the Party with the 20% less dmg from the boss (with BtW used on boss i mean) while Guardian gives permanent GF. - do Justice Crash and btw debuff stack?
And for certain Events like Jasmin Position mech; defensio does not use the BtW on the boss but on the ppl to provide additional defense for the time of the debuff. Same usage on darkroom of Tacitus. - Maybe with both shields and block bubble buff even man to man might be viable?
and With the block buff u buff additional defense (and provide a noob heal which is supportive for Saints - HAHA - I mean. u can get the heal amount to 2% with skill up heraldry and technique ring lel. Its something *inserts meme*)

Actionspeed increase by Gearstep is a 5 seconds buff and does apply even to Walking. Together with her Overboost ( Defense) which increases Action Speed it might not be such a pain to cast BtW and the Long Beatdown all the time if u Combo them after gearstep and after each other properly. (something like step up - right click into leap over - spacebar - btw - beatdown exi; then use a block and continue with Rotation 2: rock away - kidney blow with AS plate for faster Animation of it - btw - beatdown exi)

And if u mastered doing this combining it with her atk skills u might aswell deal Little damage (seems like u Need gear for her)

Maybe theres something in this text that inspired some People here to go on testing stuff or try and chain different Things together. In the end its all about starting stuff with gearsteps while being buffed with overboost (defense) to increase Overall actionspeed by quiet alot to make the Long casting times Shorter.

After writing this im pretty tempted to test defensio. But i got no char Slot left
QQ

#8 Rokes

Rokes

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 754 posts
  • PROkes
  • DN, Desmodeus
  • PROjectX

Posted 15 April 2016 - 05:34 PM

@iBob

First, I dont want defensio to do damage, If I wanted damage I would just take a DPS. If you check Hero Battlefield, I am current first Defensio so I know how to DPS with her.

BTW animation bug is annoying, and I did know it and was telling my teammates: "you got BTW even if you dont see it" the entire run, annoying as fk but ok.

Chaining skills is totally pointless as Defension, I barely use Ducking since I do not need to refresh step up. You have 3 combos as defensio

BTW>Beat Down EXi>Charging Gear

Step up> Beat Down > Charging Gear

Step up > Leap Over > Charging Gear

You can spam those 3 combos over and over so there is totally no point even using ducking or the other 2 Gear step.


Being the subTank is completely useless, your provoke doesnt override Guardian's Provoke so even in the situations you need to take away the agro, you can't.

-------------------------------

I know I barely played Defensio a couple of Days, but coming from having played Ruina is easier to learn the class.

And oposed to my feelings with ruina and her HUGE DPS potential, Defensio is just trash. We have stated that she cannot Tank properly, so you can only the her as DPS, and with same gears she probably does 1/3 of Ruina's Damage

Edited by Rokes, 15 April 2016 - 05:35 PM.


#9 iBob

iBob

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 24 posts

Posted 15 April 2016 - 07:50 PM

or she just is a defense Support.

I did ~ 10b (10 000 000 000) on my first run in rdn norm on my ruina in a Party with rdn L inqui and Smasher. (my ruina had 3 rdn L parts +12 each)

1/3 of that would be 3b. 3b for a Support class that decreases incoming damage by ~ 40%? while providing a shield for critical phases and having a permanent mini heal? doesnt Sound too bad.

Still i agree that Ruina has SOME of the abilities a defensio has. But i dont think that a ruina will ever Focus on using them. SO i think for a more defensive Setup a defensio is a very good choice to take.

GIB HER A CHANCE QQ u know

#10 Weapon7

Weapon7

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 934 posts

Posted 15 April 2016 - 09:13 PM

View PostiBob, on 15 April 2016 - 07:50 PM, said:

or she just is a defense Support.

I did ~ 10b (10 000 000 000) on my first run in rdn norm on my ruina in a Party with rdn L inqui and Smasher. (my ruina had 3 rdn L parts +12 each)

1/3 of that would be 3b. 3b for a Support class that decreases incoming damage by ~ 40%? while providing a shield for critical phases and having a permanent mini heal? doesnt Sound too bad.

Still i agree that Ruina has SOME of the abilities a defensio has. But i dont think that a ruina will ever Focus on using them. SO i think for a more defensive Setup a defensio is a very good choice to take.

GIB HER A CHANCE QQ u know

What is a defensive support? And who the hell would need that? I mean basicly if you have a guardian you alread yhave defensive support with guardian force, which is most commonly used for the party and not the tank himself.

3b for a not at all needed support or just another DPS? Obviosly another DPS!

Perma mini heal? You mean your supposely "damage dealing support" is jumping into every hit and trying to block it? Have fun with being perma buff wiped..... kappa

We are 90 cap and you talk about a more defensive setup for an 80 raid. lmao
So what's your pt setup? Saint, Inqui, Phys, LF, Guard, Destroyer, AW, Defensio?

Edited by Weapon7, 15 April 2016 - 09:22 PM.


#11 Schiz

Schiz

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 121 posts

Posted 15 April 2016 - 10:07 PM

View PostWeapon7, on 15 April 2016 - 09:13 PM, said:

So what's your pt setup? Saint, Inqui, Phys, LF, Guard, Destroyer, AW, Defensio?

gib god cross and ill gladly do that, tho I'd take genie over AW

Edited by Schiz, 15 April 2016 - 10:08 PM.


#12 Weapon7

Weapon7

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 934 posts

Posted 15 April 2016 - 10:10 PM

View PostSchiz, on 15 April 2016 - 10:07 PM, said:

gib god cross and ill gladly do that, tho I'd take genie over AW

Yeah could consider Dancer with heal dance, cuz it would already be 2 MRs+ LF ulti+GF+healshower. But still the setup should have enough heal so maybe stick to AW with LF ulti.

#13 iBob

iBob

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 24 posts

Posted 16 April 2016 - 03:00 AM

View PostWeapon7, on 15 April 2016 - 09:13 PM, said:

What is a defensive support? And who the hell would need that? I mean basicly if you have a guardian you alread yhave defensive support with guardian force, which is most commonly used for the party and not the tank himself.

3b for a not at all needed support or just another DPS? Obviosly another DPS!

Perma mini heal? You mean your supposely "damage dealing support" is jumping into every hit and trying to block it? Have fun with being perma buff wiped..... kappa

We are 90 cap and you talk about a more defensive setup for an 80 raid. lmao
So what's your pt setup? Saint, Inqui, Phys, LF, Guard, Destroyer, AW, Defensio?


seems like u totally got my post wrong but nvm.

If People want AW to use LF ulti for the defense in RDN HC, for defense, which kills very much of his DPS, i dont see a Problem in taking a class that provides WAY MORE defense PERMANENTLY.

But yeah i think the Mages and Assassins you Play with dont tend to get their health to 1/4 with 1 hit in RDN HC. Ofc more defense is totally a bad Thing. Oh wait right u Switch to Cauda Accessoires on Snipers because of the DEFENSE they provide and cauda equip for Tacitus so u dont die oneshot because of the DEFENSE the equip provides. But yeah again. Lets just sacrifice our full L grade set Bonus to not die. why not just take defensio instead and take 20% less damage and additional 20% def while a seasoned and exped Defensio Player will be able to stil ldeal alot more damage.
Oh yeah lets not allow her to deal any damage because right, she aint meant to do so... at least thats what u think before even trying to master her.

Oh yeah. SHE CANT TANK QQ

Edited by iBob, 16 April 2016 - 03:02 AM.


#14 Rokes

Rokes

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 754 posts
  • PROkes
  • DN, Desmodeus
  • PROjectX

Posted 16 April 2016 - 06:31 PM

@iBob

The points you are making are just plain rètarded. Following your logic, we could just take 8 Support Classes to RDN and it would be the best composition.

DN has become a DPS centered game, why you think 80% of the parties use Physician instead of Lightfury even tho LF is waaaaaaaayyy better at supporting? BECAUSE OF DAMAGE.

First, what does Defensio provide over Ruina? 20% Damage Reduction at the cost of not giving BTW to the party. You either protect the party or reduce Boss Attack, its imposible to have both since the range and effect of BTW is so bad. So in the end that 20% damage reduction is just useless if you are not gonna give BTW to your team. And that comes with a total sacrifice of a DPS spot and a 20% elemental stackable debuff.

2nd,  why not take Destroyer instead? Damage is similar but Destroyer damage reduction is permanent with the option to give a 20 second Charging Hown once in a while? OH WAIT, no one in their freaking mind would take a Destroyer as DPS spot.

3. Her support is SO BAD, why not take AW with heal, cure and Defensive Ultimate for emergencies? Why not take Inquisitor with a better heal (yeah freaking Healing relic spam is better than Defensio heal), a cure and 2 defensive buffs?. Or better, why not take a second Saint or Physician? Their damage is similar and we can all agree their support capabilities are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyy better than Defensio.

4. People don't take AW or Inqui because they want to use their defensive ultimates, they take them because in addition to having the possibility of using their ultimates, they are freaking STRONG DPS classes, which Defensio is not.

5. "Mastered" Defensio does not out DPS "Mastered" Physicians/Saints. Heck it probably cannot even outDPS a DPS focused Guardian, so why not take a second Guardian instead?



The only Spot Defensio can have is any party is main Tank, and as we have stated and you even said it yourself, She can't Tank. Its not about "giving her a chance", its just that she is plain bad, this game is not well Balanced and Defensio got the lower end of revamps. I personally would even rate her below Acrobats or even adept right now

#15 LuziArt

LuziArt

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 36 posts
  • Arteey
  • DN, Desmodeus
  • ProjectX

Posted 20 April 2016 - 09:01 AM

Ok :) Maybe the heal isnt that strong and the Defense Debuff ok mehh.

But dont u think its possible that Defensio can deal Dmg, I mean like: Step Up -> Beat Down Ex -> BTW -> Beat Down iEx -> Repair and maybe a leapover in there.

Higher than the DMG of a Phy its not but If pts want to setup a bit more defensiv pt to get a saver clear can be helpfull (If the pt already full RDN L ok..., then its kinda useless, but If ppl returned to the game with BDN or Cauda/Felis/Coma Eq and dont have that much EXP in RDN it can be helpfull to have a 2nd Defense Buff).


I dont know, maybe we all missunderstood how we have to play the Defensio... I really dont know (T.T)
It would be rly bad If the same going to happen to the Defensio as to the Acros...


Setup with Defensio:

Saint-Guard-Phy-Defensio-DPS-DPS-DPS-DPS maybe...

Edited by LuziArt, 20 April 2016 - 09:10 AM.


#16 Weapon7

Weapon7

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 934 posts

Posted 20 April 2016 - 04:41 PM

View PostLuziArt, on 20 April 2016 - 09:01 AM, said:

Ok :) Maybe the heal isnt that strong and the Defense Debuff ok mehh.

But dont u think its possible that Defensio can deal Dmg, I mean like: Step Up -> Beat Down Ex -> BTW -> Beat Down iEx -> Repair and maybe a leapover in there.

Higher than the DMG of a Phy its not but If pts want to setup a bit more defensiv pt to get a saver clear can be helpfull (If the pt already full RDN L ok..., then its kinda useless, but If ppl returned to the game with BDN or Cauda/Felis/Coma Eq and dont have that much EXP in RDN it can be helpfull to have a 2nd Defense Buff).


I dont know, maybe we all missunderstood how we have to play the Defensio... I really dont know (T.T)
It would be rly bad If the same going to happen to the Defensio as to the Acros...


Setup with Defensio:

Saint-Guard-Phy-Defensio-DPS-DPS-DPS-DPS maybe...

Scenario 1: your PT is full RDN L and most likely knows how to clear RDN = no need for a Defensio
Scenario 2: your PT is unexperienced and/or ungeard you need DMG = need for more DPS = no need for a Defensio

You even wrote yourself that a phys deals higher dmg, so ppl would rather take that. Beside you just need 1 heal anyway so a 2nd one is already back up and safety (I have solo heald on Saint, LF and Phys in enough RDM pts to state that).

So if you have no Machina in your pt you obviously take a Ruina due to higher dmg, still offering BtW, FD buff and stackable ele debuff. And if you have a Machina already in your pt a Defensio wouldn't even come with the benefit of the FD buff anymore as well as no one needs a 2nd BtW.

Reasons to take a Defension: there is no one else online and you need an 8th person, it's a friend/fixed member you don't mind coming on any (useless) class, the Defension pays for carry or there is absolutly no oter "tank" left.

#17 Rokes

Rokes

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 754 posts
  • PROkes
  • DN, Desmodeus
  • PROjectX

Posted 21 April 2016 - 05:30 PM

View PostLuziArt, on 20 April 2016 - 09:01 AM, said:


Step Up -> Beat Down Ex -> BTW -> Beat Down iEx -> Repair and maybe a leapover in there.

I dont know, maybe W̶e̶ ̶a̶l̶l̶ I missunderstood how W̶e̶ I have to play the Defensio...

Yeah... you dont even know how to dps as defensio...

Edited by Rokes, 21 April 2016 - 05:31 PM.


#18 LuziArt

LuziArt

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 36 posts
  • Arteey
  • DN, Desmodeus
  • ProjectX

Posted 22 April 2016 - 12:09 AM

View PostRokes, on 21 April 2016 - 05:30 PM, said:

Yeah... you dont even know how to dps as defensio...

Nope (T.T) (no)

#19 RancorSnp

RancorSnp

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 194 posts
  • DN, Desmodeus

Posted 22 April 2016 - 04:36 AM

View PostRokes, on 14 April 2016 - 05:15 PM, said:

2.Beyond The Wall is just cancer. Long casting, can fail, doesnt hit ppl under you or behind, sometimes doesnt even hit ppl in front. I am not expert BTWer, but roughyly out of 100 BTWs:

About using Beyond the wall : it may seem glitch and not working all the time, but that's just you not casting it properly.

What you are (most likely) doing wrong is the fact you are Jumping, using beyond the wall and instantly clicking the mouse button to activate it.
When you do so, you are activating the skill before it really started, and making it work buggy, and to be unreliable.

To be able to use Beyond the wall with 100% accuracy and succes chances, you need to Jump, Use beyond the wall while holding direction button (left, right etc.) wait for a second so that machina travels a bit in the air using the skill, and then press the mouse button just before she is starts landing.

If you do it this way, you'll learn that not only the skill always work like expected, it also has greater range than you thought it does. Try it for yourself :)

#20 Rokes

Rokes

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 754 posts
  • PROkes
  • DN, Desmodeus
  • PROjectX

Posted 23 April 2016 - 03:07 AM

View PostRancorSnp, on 22 April 2016 - 04:36 AM, said:



About using Beyond the wall : it may seem glitch and not working all the time, but that's just you not casting it properly.

What you are (most likely) doing wrong is the fact you are Jumping, using beyond the wall and instantly clicking the mouse button to activate it.
When you do so, you are activating the skill before it really started, and making it work buggy, and to be unreliable.

To be able to use Beyond the wall with 100% accuracy and succes chances, you need to Jump, Use beyond the wall while holding direction button (left, right etc.) wait for a second so that machina travels a bit in the air using the skill, and then press the mouse button just before she is starts landing.

If you do it this way, you'll learn that not only the skill always work like expected, it also has greater range than you thought it does. Try it for yourself :)

And then you do it on you team properly and 2/7 people get it YAY!

Cancer skill is cancer no matter how you look at it