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Full IDN Guide by MuchAshe / SeriousClownfish


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#21 Weapon7

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Posted 22 September 2016 - 06:59 PM

No he didn't slip his mind.

You need 236.880 Crit to reach 100% Crit in 90cap content, but you are capped at 89% Crit anyway so going over 210.823=89% isn't giving you any increase. This is the meaning of being capped.

What he is saying is that the def value of bosses in IDN is 46.530 which was 46.530/165.816*100%=28.06% for 90cap, while 46.530 in 93cap it's only 46.530/233.730*100%=19.91%.

Same goes for crit resist - 90cap 62.667/236.880*100%=26.46% which would be in 93cap 62.667/367.290*100%=17.06%

So without any consideration of debuffs bosses lost basicly 8.15% def and resist 9.4% less of your crits (compared to being lvl90).

edit:
@Ashy: OMG Trashy I just noticed you haven't even listed the the crit resist of IDN bosses. If I could I would lower my 1star rating!!! And you should probably add 90cap to the "speed run" or ppl will think bad of you. 42 mins in 93cap ayy lmao....

Edited by Weapon7, 22 September 2016 - 07:03 PM.


#22 zuyi

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Posted 22 September 2016 - 07:22 PM

^ tho he said 233k def, not crit :v

View PostMathewson, on 12 September 2016 - 04:05 PM, said:

u should consider IDN Bosses are lvl 90 so their defence actually is shown against a lvl 90 counterpart.
100% defense  in 93 Cap is def: 233.730
so IDN Bosses now actually take more dmg.
46.530 def / 2337,30 = 19.90% def against lvl 93 players.
same goes for crit resi

Nowhere does the comment mention the word crit by itself, sooo...thats why i said that :v

93 cap 100% def = 233730, 85% = 198671. He mentioned 100%, didn't mention 85%.

I do get what he's saying, I was just talking about the def value mentioned.

Also, they lost some def and resist, but we lose crit damage too, kinda, so I guess it balances out. (since crit damage depends on our level, and not the target)

edit -

Anyway I was answering the question below that comment, I just saw that he mentioned the 100% value only. To do the calculation I guess there is no need to mention what 85% would be, so yeah true, it didn't slip his mind.

Edited by zuyi, 22 September 2016 - 07:27 PM.


#23 Weapon7

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Posted 22 September 2016 - 08:27 PM

View Postzuyi, on 22 September 2016 - 07:22 PM, said:

^ tho he said 233k def, not crit :v



Nowhere does the comment mention the word crit by itself, sooo...thats why i said that :v

93 cap 100% def = 233730, 85% = 198671. He mentioned 100%, didn't mention 85%.

I do get what he's saying, I was just talking about the def value mentioned.

Also, they lost some def and resist, but we lose crit damage too, kinda, so I guess it balances out. (since crit damage depends on our level, and not the target)

edit -

Anyway I was answering the question below that comment, I just saw that he mentioned the 100% value only. To do the calculation I guess there is no need to mention what 85% would be, so yeah true, it didn't slip his mind.

He said "100% defense  in 93 Cap is def: 233.730" as a reference for his calculation belowwhich was "46.530 def / 2337,30 = 19.90% def against lvl 93 players."

I just took crit as example calculation, could have done the same with def, just cause more ppl pay attention to crit and it's cap than actually def caps. So yeah kinda derailed my bad and habit of giving credit to all the DN zombies. But in general it's about the fact that due to lvl cap increase the absolute values for 1% of whatever have changed so, which as I pointed out early can be nearly consider as a debuff to every lower content.

Can't say much to the crit dmg calculation atm, but overall the "debuffs" to IDN should outweight it by far - just a gut feeling. Could you give a roughly an avergae number by how much % crit dmg has decrease by this assumptions?

#24 zuyi

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Posted 22 September 2016 - 08:39 PM

Uhm, taking an example of 480k crit damage:

100% crit damage for 90 cap (300%) was 671160
100% crit damage for 93 cap is 832524.

so 480k would have been 271.51% crit damage if the char was still level 90, by leveling up to 93, it became 257.65%

So the damage reduced around 7% if we take diminishing returns into account.

I was just thinking about (sort of) balancing out between the decrease of crit damage vs increased damage by the target def value drop that you calculated. With debuffs and everything, surely the decrease in damage is negligible, maybe the 8.15% less def would outweigh it, I've never really done any tests keeping the target's inbuilt defense in mind so I can't say anything for sure either.

And yea, I agree (said above too), since he was just calculating, there wasn't any reason to include the 85% def cap info in his comment anyway, I just hadn't read the whole comment at that time.

Edited by zuyi, 22 September 2016 - 08:52 PM.


#25 Schiz

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Posted 22 September 2016 - 09:10 PM

28% def means you're doing 72% of your dmg potential

20% means you're doing 80%

From 72 to 80% it's an 11% flat increase in dmg compared to 90 cap

#26 Weapon7

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Posted 22 September 2016 - 09:33 PM

How did you calculate that 7% (just curious so i can flw your assumption better), if i may ask.

Basicly it's a 13.86% loss in crit dmg, being roughly a 12,34% dmg loss considering a crit rate of 89%. So even if your crit dmg is lower the effect of lower def and a lower crit resistance would still be higher - still gut feeling (sry busy working and tired).
edit: I think the wording of dmg loss is wrong here, as it's just focus on the crit dmg factor rather than the whole dmg calculation... as I said tired. sowwie

But considering (no crit resist debuff apllied/considerd for this assumption) that 26.46% of your crits were resisted (lvl 90), meaning that you basicly only crited 89%*(100%-26.46%)=65,45% compared to 17.06% (lvl 93) which results in more or less an applied crit rate of 89%*(100%-17.06%)=73,82%, it should already outweight the loss of crit dmg.
So with your example the dmg increase due to crits would be 65,45%*171.51%(considering the additional dmg a crit deals compared to a normal hit [roughly])=112,25% compared to 73,82%*157.65%=116,38%.

Add the increase due to reduced def, i would guess the overall increase should be somewhere in between 10% to 20% (very precise assumption I know). But yeah alot of assumption in general, so don't nail me down on them or i bring the "i was tired" excuse. kappa

#27 zuyi

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Posted 23 September 2016 - 01:43 AM

271.51% > 2.715x (atk*elem*fd) for every crit hit
257.65% > 2.576x "

(271.51*100)/257.65 = 105.38%, so every critical hit would've done 5.38% more overall damage (I guess 5.38%, not 7%, that was just random guess), but yea, that's why I used the word damage loss. And yeaa, I didn't factor in crit resist either.

Anyway, all in all, the impact of reduced crit damage from 90 to 93 is even lesser than what I thought at first so I guess it doesn't matter. (Though I wonder what the devs would think if we mae a Feedbacks and Suggestions post about crit damage should also use the target's level, since that's how crit, def, fd work and it'd make more sense. That'd increase our damage even further)

As for calculating the final effects, I'll just read what you say, I'm tired too, almost 4 AM why am I even awake fml. goodnight

#28 XaelCry

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Posted 23 September 2016 - 11:00 AM

My brain dies after reading those numbers.

#29 Weapon7

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Posted 23 September 2016 - 07:04 PM

View PostXaelCry, on 23 September 2016 - 11:00 AM, said:

My brain dies after reading those numbers.

why?

#30 NeroShadow

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Posted 25 September 2016 - 07:48 PM

I was wondering : if a boss cast a mecha whereas a SA bar mecha is on CD, is its CD reseted, "put on pause", or just continuing? I would trend to think it simply keeps going but I have a doubt for the 1st boss when the normal SA bar is on CD and he casts the one with the cursing ball.

By the way, I was convinced I renembered which balls were spawning with 1/2 players alive at mino and I wanted to check for 3 persons so I glanced at a 3 men bdn clear (the one of Seraphimu) and I saw that 12, 3 ,9 and 7 spawned, which let me pretty puzzled. Is it a bug?

Edited by NeroShadow, 25 September 2016 - 07:49 PM.


#31 UltraMega

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Posted 02 October 2016 - 11:05 PM

View PostXaelCry, on 23 September 2016 - 11:00 AM, said:

My brain dies after reading those numbers.

Me: Scanned thru the end of thread whenever i see those numbers -_-

#32 andiilham

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Posted 04 October 2016 - 03:05 PM

can i add mechs for ice dragon nest hardcore?

mutated codiac :
-3 front breath Posted Image

- bar mech i frame, can't hit the boss Posted Image
- random poison Posted Image

Killing Machine Balapa :
- Stomp ex, after running and stomp he add a new skill just like in daedalus's boss Posted Image Posted Image
- Berserk , just like minotaur in black dragon nest remove the berserk status with engineer's mecha or enervating howl or soul eater's scream, Balapa will go on Berserk status after overcharged current, don't come near him or you will die in instant

Posted Image Posted Image
- smack down/ dunk : before he jump all of you will get confuse debuff so be careful! Posted Image
- breath : new move counter clockwise, starting from left
- 2 laser : adding 1 rotating laser , 2 laser in HC Posted Image


Ice Dragon :
Phase 1 :  in the second wave , the punisher spawn already and the third wave

Phase 2 :
nothing different bar x20 to x10

x10 to 0
mech : adding two blue eye (in normal just one )
new mech : ice prison notification warning "ice dragon going to attack you" just like desert dragon's mech in ice dragon it's freez one of your party, you need to break the ice prison, just attack the person who's trapped and run far away after he's free because the dragon will cast stomp in a large area after

note: there's a bug when someone got trapped but can't move you can use change location just like RDN but you can't cast skill just walking.


#33 viBIEN

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 02:27 AM

is the 4man and 8man IDN have the same mechanics? thanks for answering

#34 MuchAshe

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 02:46 AM

View PostviBIEN, on 05 October 2016 - 02:27 AM, said:

is the 4man and 8man IDN have the same mechanics? thanks for answering

Yes

#35 Soullo

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Posted 28 October 2016 - 03:19 AM

MuchAshe, when will you add the difference in hardcore? Waiting them ^^

#36 MuchAshe

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 08:33 PM

View PostSoullo, on 28 October 2016 - 03:19 AM, said:

MuchAshe, when will you add the difference in hardcore? Waiting them ^^

Hey, sorry for late response. Didn't really plan on adding the HC mechanics, so I'll just give you a quick overview.

1st Boss:

Suction (AD): Instead of doing a single breath to the front he does 3 in frontal cone shapes, similar to the first boss in RDN.
Barmechanic (75%, 50%, 25%): Boss is invincible during the mechanic, nothing else.

Poison spitting: The only new mechanic for the first boss. He looks like he throws up (think of the clone spawning animation) and then randomly spits poison meteors at a bunch of team members. Red indicator on the ground, just walk away.

2nd Boss:

Stomp: This mechanic can now happen at all bars, same animation as double electric balls still, so be more careful on the first two bars. At the end of the stomp he will summon 3 fire circles around him that deal low damage and apply a burn (think suction mechanic on second boss in DDL). Simply don't stand on them and you are fine.

Overcharge: After overcharge the boss will slam the ground causing heavy damage (and I mean heavy as in 6m on a def capped Destro). He will then go into Berserker mode for 25s, causing everything he does to deal extremely high damage. You either stay away from him for the duration or you can debuff it (Merc Deva Howl, Engis Mecha Siren and Soul Eaters something, forget the skill name).

Dunk/Opposite corner: Once he climbs up the pillar the entire team gets a confusion debuff that can be cured. Just run to the opposite corner as soon as you spot the mechanic and try to stay there before the debuff gets applied.

Breath EX: Breath can go left or right, stay behind the boss and react according to his movement.

Bar mechanic (25%): The lasers are shorter but on both sides of the pillars, which means you have to move a little more, but you can now move around the lasers instead of running full circles. This change is kinda positive actually.

3rd boss:

Phase 1:
There is a punisher in the second and third stage, doesn't really change anything, have to CC/kill him twice instead of once.

Fly (Spacebar): At the end of this mechanic, after the stomp he will throw 3 ice spears at the marked person instead of just 1. Simply walk along the wall to keep the spears away from the team if you get the mark.

Fly (Mark): Same as above.

Ice-Aura: Gets an EX-Version. Below 50% the dragon will now cast 2 of these on random members, doesn't change a lot, just need to get 2 people to move away from the party instead of 1.

Ice-Cage: New mechanic, Dragon flies up and there is a system message along the lines of "The dragon plummets the ground". Then everyone gets frozen and has to AD out. 1 person stays frozen and has to be safed by the others. It's like the DDN sand cage, just attack, then run away from the spot because he will cast a small stomp there that oneshots everything.



That should be it, if I forgot something and I realise that, I will update this post. Otherwise maybe others can point out more differences in case I missed something.

#37 Weapon7

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 12:34 AM

View PostMuchAshe, on 31 October 2016 - 08:33 PM, said:

That should be it, if I forgot something and I realise that, I will update this post.

CRIT RESIST!!! (sob) (sob) (sob)

#38 MuchAshe

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 01:38 AM

View PostWeapon7, on 01 November 2016 - 12:34 AM, said:

CRIT RESIST!!! (sob) (sob) (sob)

62677 for all bosses which is 26.5%.

#39 SorceressHater

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 08:13 AM

Thanks for the guide.

I'm not sure why but it seems IDN 4 man (normal mode) has some mechanics missing compared to 8 man.
One example is the stage 1 boss, in 8 man it summons another big bear at the end, but it doesn't happen in 4 man.

View PostMuchAshe, on 04 August 2016 - 07:18 PM, said:

  • 8 people -> all crystals spawn -> 11 has aura
  • 7 people -> 11 doesn’t spawn -> 5 has aura
  • 6 people -> 5 doesn’t spawn -> 7 has aura
  • 5 people -> 7 doesn’t spawn -> 1 has aura
  • 4 people -> 1 doesn’t spawn -> 9 has aura
  • 3 people -> 9 doesn’t spawn -> ?? has aura
  • 2 people -> ?? doesn’t spawn -> ?? has aura
  • 1 person -> ?? doesn’t spawn -> ?? has aura
(Unsure here as we haven’t done them with that many people down. If anyone remembers the order of the bubbles at Mino in BDN, please post them, they should be the same.)



Though the numbers used (1 3 5 6 7 9 11 12) are the same, I think the sequence of missing is different. BDN Mino and RDN Jasmine shares the same sequence of missing
1 person missing = 7
2 person missing = 7 and 11
3 person missing = 7, 11, and 1
4 person missing = 7, 11, 1, and 5
5 person missing = 7, 11, 1, 5, and 6
6 person missing = 7, 11, 1, 5, 6, and 9
7 person missing = 7, 11, 1, 5, 6, 9 and 12

#40 Xenocho

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 08:53 AM

View PostSorceressHater, on 01 November 2016 - 08:13 AM, said:

Thanks for the guide.

I'm not sure why but it seems IDN 4 man (normal mode) has some mechanics missing compared to 8 man.
One example is the stage 1 boss, in 8 man it summons another big bear at the end, but it doesn't happen in 4 man.



Though the numbers used (1 3 5 6 7 9 11 12) are the same, I think the sequence of missing is different. BDN Mino and RDN Jasmine shares the same sequence of missing
1 person missing = 7
2 person missing = 7 and 11
3 person missing = 7, 11, and 1
4 person missing = 7, 11, 1, and 5
5 person missing = 7, 11, 1, 5, and 6
6 person missing = 7, 11, 1, 5, 6, and 9
7 person missing = 7, 11, 1, 5, 6, 9 and 12

11 disappears first. Clownfish is correct