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Lf> Defensio Help From Pawhammer


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#1 Patrache

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 04:21 AM

Hello im Patrache a Dragon Nest NA Defensio (well not atm cced to ruina briefly but will change back). I Was trying to dig up guides and strategies for defensio and ended up here on the DN SEA forums. Not many people In DN NA Main defensio let alone do IDN with it. So i saw on one of the threads here that PawHammer Consistently clears IDN as a defensio and I just have a couple of questions in regards to that.

1) Could you record a full run of you doing IDN on your defensio?
2) Are you the main tank on your team?
3) If you are the main tank, how do you deal with trying to barrier allies and maintaining provoke in IDN?  Like a lot of people tell me the tank is supposed to "Spin" Aggro the first boss primarily. Ive only attempted to do it once (lack of people to run with) and it didnt go so well.

I guess my main questions and concerns can be answered if you can make a gameplay video, which I would greatly appreciate. Because of the lack of information on defensio in NA not many people know what she is capable of and dont ever consider her for an idn team. So I CCed to ruina recently but she has been very hard for me to grasp compared to defensio.

Anyone else is welcome to answer my questions if they can.

Thanks to anyone who reads this and helps out,
Just a NA Defensio ~ Patrache

#2 PawHammer

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 05:39 AM

Wow, I was not expecting my defensio affection to be noticed a lot, since there is not too many people maining or even sub-maining her. Let me begin by thanking you for the trust you are putting in me by actually even mentioning me in the thread's title. As a small disclaimer, I am sub(almost maining) defensio since she was launched on DN EU, but this does not mean I am the best defensio player there is at all. If you happen to be interested in how to deal damage with defensio, ShiningFactor (even though he's not a defensio main) can provide some insight. Now, about my playstyle, I tend to play my defensio in a fully supportive way, only jumping to damage when a dps check appears or when dpsers are down and some extra damage is needed. Currently my defensio is using the following:

Weapons: Leica main, RDNL secondary weapons.

Armor: RDNL Helm (TOL jade, Agi+vit, vit+agi level 80 jades), 3 pieces IDNL +13 with wind + vit +14, 1 +10 IDNL piece with one +14 wind + vit jade.

Accessories: Max vit-max ele resist tech necklace (taunting blow+1), Max ele resist+vit earrings (choose foot stomp or wallop +1), attack +light/dark rings (beat down, leap over +1).

Skill heraldries: Repair CD, Taunting blow CD, Leap Over DMG, Beat Down DMG, Beyond the wall CD (got an expansion, but not 100% necessary).

I started clearing with full RDNL +12 and built up with other characters as well, now I'm selling carry services along with some comrades from the EU server. About your questions/inquiries:

1) Most likely yes, would you prefer a normal or a hardcore run? If you prefer the HC one, you'll most likely have to wait until next week, since I'm already capped.

2) Yes, and the only tank in the party.

3) This requires an elaborate reply but in essence:

  -1st boss does not have to spin, the parties I'm in never told me to and I don't plan to follow the spinning strategy any time soon, you get time to debuff it with beyond the wall as well as focusing on keeping the provoke in place and getting successful blocks.

  -2nd boss' aggro is random, which is fantastic for you, since you get to focus a lot more in shield giving and debuffing the boss. If your teammates are used to playing with defensio, they'll know how to make use of your fantastic air shove ex damage reduction, since most of the hits this boss causes are blockable and very (and I mean very) predictable.

  -3rd boss phase 1 is the same as with any other tank, you stay near the dragon and provoke. If you want to be the super duper awesome tank, you can also use every time window it gives (after moving, he stops for a few seconds) to go back to your team and shield them a little bit. If you need healing, get hit by his clawing attack with beyond the wall on you, it will remove overboost, but wont break BTW, so you can heal yourself without making the saint/phy waste a heal on you.

  -3rd boss phase 2 is the same as with any other tank, just make sure to mark your postion with f3 macro so everyone knows which side to go to. This also gives you an advantage to lay shields on people, as they will most likely group up on that side of the dragon, and you are likely to get a bunch of them, if not all, in your shield.

General tips that may be useful for you:

-Inform your party mates of what defensio does. I've had the honor of being in the same party as some of the most skilled EU players, and some of them did not know some aspects of her skills.

-Beyond the wall is more a self-shield than your usual tank shielding. The easiest way a defensio has to protect everyone is through the usage of air shove EX and accurate blocks. If you are not aware of that, the EX version applies a 20% damage reduction bonus on top of some residual healing.

-Beyond the wall is not useless, however, because it does not rely on blocking to cast it, and has a very decent shielding type (now less effective because of the existance of equalized stats on IDNL equips). If you see a teammate is low on health, keep aggro, but give him the shield. BTW can fail sometimes due to lag issues or the bad design of the skill, and to maximize the success of a casting, you should definitely wait a second from the moment you press the skill button and the actual shield casting.

  -Never. NEVER. Use man to man (defensio ultimate) if the saint is alive, or when more than half of the party is alive or if your HP is lower than 3 million. That skill can get you killed in an instant. However, it is somewhat viable on IDN last stage, specially in moments when you know the dragon can't cast a very powerful skill (think candle mechanic, where everyone needs to dps). Not a reliable ultimate anyway, always keep beyond the wall on allies under your protection or you will suffer the consequences.

  -Remember that your provoke (taunting blow) is melee, and you will need to land it for it to take effect. Fortunately for you, its cooldown is very short, and you can refresh it with repair instantly. As a tank, you don't want to detonate the mark, as that removes the provocation effect, but rather keep it on the boss. Count 15 seconds from your first taunting blow, and around 14-ish, detonate it with a new taunting blow, repair, and taunting blow again to damage the boss and still keep the aggro on you (the damage dealing/buggy way is different, but that's not my field of expertise).

Anyway, these are some very shallow and general tips on the defensio class. The biggest problem you will have is being underpowered (which also means you will need to gear up a little to be usable) and outclassed by every single tank out there (with equal gear), and some people prefering those tanks instead of you in a raid because of several reasons, the main of them being comfort. When you bring a destroyer, or a guardian with your team, their shielding will reach you even if you are very far away and last for long, while your shielding has a very small range and duration. Defensio as a main tank requires not only her to be expert, but also the teammates. Being able to run with a defensio requires a lot of focus and movement, not only from you, but from the party members. Positioning is key (although not required).

Been a long post, but I hope I can help you a bit. I will be uploading a video with an IDN normal and/or hardcore run at some point. I wish you a nice day, and I welcome you back to the defensio class (also be hyped, we're getting an extreme buff soon).

Update: the party I'm doing carries with just told me that our client this week wants to stay anonymous, so I can not record our runs yet. I may try and do a normal IDN run with a -shiver- random party. This means the footage you'll see will not be experts at playing with defensio, but could give you a general idea of how it is to play it on a raid.

#3 Patrache

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 07:36 AM

Thank you for responding to my thread!!!

First things first, in regards to gear. Im a Decently geared Machina But not really above average.
My Armor is the following:
+11 Coma Helmet(90 Cap Daidalos Nest Epic, Not sure what it is called in DN SEA) With +3 Guild gem
+8 RDN-L Body with Quality Wind and Life giving gem
+11 IDN U Pants With +12 90 Wind Gem
+11 Coma Gloves with +12 90 Wind Gem
+11 Coma Shoes with +10 90 Wind Gem

My weapons are +12 RDN-L Knuckle and +11 RDN-L Claw

I basically use the same Skill crests as you.
for my necklace change it up depending on if im going tank or damage for regular nests. Tanking Necklace is a balanced Vitality and Agility Beyond the wall Tech
Earrings are Theano Earrings with Bonus stat Physical damage
Rings are Leap over (Twister Kick in DN NA) Physical w/ Light+Dark and Beat Down with Physical and Vitality (No Luck getting elemental)

My stats in a tank build is around 2.8 mill hp with 167k max attack. ( I achieve that HP with Vitality gems on my RDN-L weapons)
I haven't bought third stat vitality crests atm but will do so when I switch back.

Progressing my gear at this point may be difficult/expensive but im open for critique on it.

First Question: I noticed You use a Tree of Life gem on RDN-L Helmet, Do you think an RDN-L helmet is needed for defensio? I also read you try to maximize your defense support for your team by using Air Shove (Aerial Parry in DN NA), so you use the TOL Gem to increase your healing capacity?
2nd Question: I have trouble knowing when is an appropriate time to use Aerial Parry (Air Shove) in IDN. A Lot of the the attacks in there leave after effects like Shock, poison, burns or freezes/slows making me less likely want to parry but try to dodge the attacks instead. This is an IDN Question mainly, so im sure watching your gameplay video would immediately answer it.

To answer your question on which Raid I prefer (IDN Norm or HC) , it doesn't matter to me, If you are doing IDN Norm without burning through the bosses(meaning not running with Max FD super OP allies) so fast then i am fine with that. I Need to analyze how you are managing the mechs of IDN as a Primary Tank Defensio and wont be able to do so if the nest is cleared really fast.

3rd Question: You said if an ally is in danger and needs barrier that I should Rush over to him and Barrier while maintaining aggro. That sounds very complicated to execute because if I have aggro and the ally is a decent length away from me, I could be doing more harm than good. Hopefully your gameplay footage could bring light on that.

4th Question: I know Man to Man (Strike of the Martyr in NA) is a Suicidal skill, but i always felt using it with Saints Grand Sigil was an effective way of Protecting allies.

Reading your Post made me more excited to class change back to defensio. (But still cant atm).
Looking forward to your gameplay video and thanks again!

#4 PawHammer

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 11:09 AM

1) No, definitely not needed for defensio. I just plan to replace it with an IDNL helm with the strongest variant jade I can possibly make, but I have not gathered enough furies for that just yet (because 1, my luck is terrible and 2, I only clear on three characters). The air shove heal is so irrelevant that a TOL jade would do nothing to it. It does affect the healing received from your overboost, though, which is the main reason for me to use it (and since this healing is going to be replaced by another one in the future, I deem it unnecessary to have).

2) If your repair skill is off cooldown, and assuming the hit won't debuff you (remove overboost), go ahead, block it. If it's a combo skill with multiple hits, wait for it to end, then use repair and you'll be just fine (hell, you can even walk over your circles and heal back any poisonous effects). In some cases, like dragon phase 1, it's pointless to block anything because your allies are doing other stuff, so just dodge or, if you need healing, beyond the wall, get hit, and use overboost to heal back to full.

3) Ideally, none of your allies will get on a critical condition, as most parties carry a couple of healers with them, saint and physician being the usual composition. However, in the rare occurrence of a teammate being below 15% HP and with heals on cooldown (communication is key tho), it is up to you to keep that person alive. Assuming that guy did not flee to mars or a further planet, you can always land a taunting blow, use your fantastic fly by to get to him, chain fly by to beyond the wall and use the bounce to get back. This, while not being 100% necessary, can buy that injured person some time before the heal comes. Also, I may add, anyone under your shell is basically "invulnerable" for the whole duration of the buff (that, again, can't be removed) unless they are under a defense debuff, so that ally can stay closer.

4) Man to man is a very tricky skill to use, and yes, it couples well with damage reductions. Protection shell (buff from priest) is one of the best things to couple it with, same goes for miracle relic. However, you need to know when it's safe to use and when it's not. An innocent relic wipe with the dragon's tail can ruin your day on a serious run (specially when your max HP is not that high).

About your gear, I know NA's economy is very different, but I would try and aim for a 3M+ HP build. I guess you can try to reach it by upgrading your chestplate or getting some third stat VIT heraldries (crests, you named them?). About your physical attack, it will not matter (too much) just yet because you are going to play tank, and whatever you wear, guard and destroyer outclass you. In the future, defensio's playstyle will drift a bit towards extra damage, so it might (MIGHT) be a good idea to split your build between agility and vitality in terms of heraldries. You have picked a very hard to play class and it will take you a lot of work to get it working, but with enough dedication... who knows what you will achieve? I really respect people who pick a class based on what they like, and not on what the "top tier" is, so you already have that going for you. Wish you the best!

P.S: Adding this because I felt like it:

Best friends of defensio: Lancer (harmonize), Warrior (damage), assassin (crit damage), any cleric (HP/heal buff).

#5 TresCommas

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 09:00 PM

Tried using my defensio, party dont even care about the airshove heal zones. Tried to help them using beyond the wall, they are all over the freaking place

#6 Patrache

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Posted 15 January 2017 - 01:18 AM

Hi Paw,

just wanted to ask if you can give an estimated time on when i can expect to see that gameplay video?

Thanks

#7 PawHammer

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Posted 15 January 2017 - 09:56 PM

Hello there, Patrache. I am working on it, there's a few problems I have to face when playing with completely random parties (In IDN normal, that is, no way I'll risk a HC ticket with randoms). I'd say maybe by the end of this week I should have something done (also, I would like to record a good run, not one where we nuke all the bosses in 4 minutes and/or there's big problems that stop us from clearing normally).

Have a nice day!