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Need Opinions : Least Op Class For Pvp At 93 Cap


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#21 Evellyn

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 06:33 PM

feint can change back the situation (:>) . when you almost lost.

#22 k0npaku

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 01:53 AM

Okay, if you think so
Again, I dont said that ripper is weak. I said that every other class can counter him if they know how to play against ripp
Sin is that class which is not allowed to do ANY mistake because you'll be dead right after it. When other classes like palas can do several mistakes and still kill anyone in some stupidly easy "combo"

Edited by k0npaku, 14 February 2017 - 01:55 AM.


#23 Limey

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 12:51 PM

View Postk0npaku, on 14 February 2017 - 01:53 AM, said:

Okay, if you think so
Again, I dont said that ripper is weak. I said that every other class can counter him if they know how to play against ripp
Sin is that class which is not allowed to do ANY mistake because you'll be dead right after it. When other classes like palas can do several mistakes and still kill anyone in some stupidly easy "combo"

More like sin is the only class who can make any mistake because they have more evades that allows more room for error. You dont get it dont you. Chasers have relatively higher survivability compared to other classes because of their evades.

I rather have 3 evades + feint but lower HP so I can make more mistakes and have a lower risk of dying in 1 combo since I can escape the combos easier with my evades, rather than having just 1 AE (kali tumble can't escaped grounded status, same for crisis howl, hypnosis blah blah etc....) and die to 1 combo because I waste my ONLY CHANCE OF EVADING A COMBO.

Sins can afford to make 3 mistakes (4 if you include feint which allows you to bankai and turn the whole tide over), compared to every other class in the game except acrobats.

If you made 3 mistakes and because of that you'll be dead right after it as you put it, it just means you are extremely careless in wasting your evades so easily. Saying that every other class can counter him if they know how to play against ripp??? Why not say that every other class can counter every other class if they know how to play against every other class? What makes ripper so special that because I know how to play against ripp means I can counter him which makes ripp relatively weaker than every other class?

Dont compare sins to palas (or guardians) since they have spammable SOF. If you want, compare them to the likes of light fury which is greatly outshined by AW, smasher which is outshined by Maj, summonless engineers, or BM which have their fake shot/triangle shot greatly nerfed.

#24 XxXh0lic

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 01:14 PM

Why are people even mentioning Engineers? Ducks aren't softbanned so they're free to use it as they please. Even if they selfban their summons, those are most likely players aiming to master the class without reliance on third parties. You've never fought good Engineers who only uses Air Shot, Reload, Bombs and Normal attack to continuosly floor people to death? They are indeed rare but I don't like how people think Engineers are useless without their summons.

#25 k0npaku

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 01:22 PM

Lol, no.
After you made a mistake no matter how much escapes you have if you dont start to kite like complete b1tch then ANY strong opponent will just snowball you to death. After any mistake.
The game is much more complex and difficult than "You hit me - I use save - I 100% counterattack you"
Any mistake will lead to another if you wont retreat. And THIS is true strongest side of ripper himself. If you make a mistake near to him - he will punish you so hard because of that SAB and fast casts.
And cause of increased Iframe on tumble and sprint in pvp - everyone will most likely escape from ripp

Good player wont use his main skills if (s)he knows that you still have evasion

Low hp of ripp simply means that even without main skills most classes can hurt you very much even by random spamming

#26 Limey

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 01:27 PM

View Postk0npaku, on 14 February 2017 - 01:22 PM, said:

Lol, no.
After you made a mistake no matter how much escapes you have if you dont start to kite like complete b1tch then ANY strong opponent will just snowball you to death. After any mistake.
The game is much more complex and difficult than "You hit me - I use save - I 100% counterattack you"
Any mistake will lead to another if you wont retreat. And THIS is true strongest side of ripper himself. If you make a mistake near to him - he will punish you so hard because of that SAB and fast casts.
And cause of increased Iframe on tumble and sprint in pvp - everyone will most likely escape from ripp

Good player wont use his main skills if (s)he knows that you still have evasion

Low hp of ripp simply means that even without main skills most classes can hurt you very much even by random spamming

"You hit me - I use save - I 100% counterattack you" might not always happen, but there is a chance. And for the case of ripper, you can "save" up to 3 times.

Compared to "You hit me - I no save to use - I 100% die"

Oh and maybe you missed it in my previous post, since rippers have heal, it turns out that they do have higher HP than other classes now.

#27 xEquation

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 01:27 PM

lmao why is kali being mentioned. their emergency ghost+tumble easily covers half the arena and she went complete 360 into kiting mode after that

Edited by xEquation, 14 February 2017 - 01:27 PM.


#28 Andikhfans

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 03:24 PM

View PostLimey, on 14 February 2017 - 12:51 PM, said:

Sins can afford to make 3 mistakes (4 if you include feint which allows you to bankai and turn the whole tide over), compared to every other class in the game except acrobats.)

That's what i always feel when in low HP mode.

#29 chunyee

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 04:14 PM

Light fury is the weakest, no argue

#30 Protector

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 04:19 PM

View PostLimey, on 14 February 2017 - 01:27 PM, said:

Oh and maybe you missed it in my previous post, since rippers have heal, it turns out that they do have higher HP than other classes now.

It's not heal, it's "sacrifice mp for hp".

And it doesn't matter if they have higher hp value, but pathetically low def. For example barb's whirlwind ex can deal up to 50% hp on full hit to assassin, while only around 20%-25% on warrior.

And based on your previous comments, you doesn't seem to have played using assassin that much, or maybe not at all.

Well, why don't just try using assassin against player with equal skill level using other classes and reconsider.

#31 Limey

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 04:35 PM

View PostProtector, on 14 February 2017 - 04:19 PM, said:

It's not heal, it's "sacrifice mp for hp".

And it doesn't matter if they have higher hp value, but pathetically low def. For example barb's whirlwind ex can deal up to 50% hp on full hit to assassin, while only around 20%-25% on warrior.

And based on your previous comments, you doesn't seem to have played using assassin that much, or maybe not at all.

Well, why don't just try using assassin against player with equal skill level using other classes and reconsider.

Doesn't change the fact that with more evade means better chances to survive combos instead of dying to 1 combo because you have less evades.

And I do have an assassin, in fact I have a raven in the main server and I play ripper in dwc server. You might say that dwc is not representative of the actual pvp scene since there is no awakening and players there are relatively weaker, but considering the fact that I can beat most pubs in dwc it means to me that ripper is a pretty strong class overall. Reasons I don't play it as my main is because the playstyle dont appeal to me.

The thing is, I don't think ripper is the perfect pvp class. But when you have many evades + high (very) sab + more iframes than 90% of the population + heal + feint + relatively good damage, ripper can easily eliminate any opponent. If the problem you have when playing a ripper is kiters, sorry to break it to you everyone experience the same problem. Machinas have if even worse when fighting kiters.

Getting back to you on HP. Same logic as before. I rather have more evades to be able to dodge a skill that does 50% HP on me, rather than having less evades to dodge a skill that does 25% HP on me. Given that assassins have better evades and others, the expected value of the damage of being an assassin is less compared to other classes.

You asked me to try and use assassin to fight against a player with equal skill level using other classes. Kindly enlighten me on how am I supposed to measure the skill level using arbitrary numerical values? What you want me to do? Run a regression to estimate the skill level of players based on number of deopendant variables such as number of hours spent playing dn + brain finger coordination + internet connection status + level of competitiveness in country + mental capability of subjects + years of education + .....?????????, and from that result find a person who have the same skill level as me and ask me to fight him using assassin while he plays another class? Ok can you win

Edited by Limey, 14 February 2017 - 04:36 PM.


#32 booyah

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 08:20 PM

Guys Guys, we are straying off the topic, Ripper isn't an underwhelming class nor an OP class (can be kited). Case closed.

Summarizing on what the weakest class is:

Light Fury.
Low HP, Low Dmg, Requires you to catch opponents multiple times to bring their HP down, Requires you to master the Assasin tree(Base job) in order to keep opponents in combo to eventually hit with a mediocre dmg skills that has long cooldowns.
Sunshine spark/Ring Strike requires you to have wasted opponents evades.
Only when you master recatching opponents will you start to win matches. Miss a recatch and you stand to lose a lot of HP from Skill spam of the opponents.

Thats it. All other classes have atleast 1/Many OP skill that can be used to faceroll opponents.

That being said, I'd love to see people master LF and face off against OP Classes. Any Latest 93cap Videos of LF's that do KOF?

Edited by booyah, 14 February 2017 - 08:27 PM.


#33 XxXh0lic

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 09:45 PM

Well as much as LF is consistently mentioned in the thread, TS seems okay playing him.

#34 Limey

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 09:48 PM

View PostXxXh0lic, on 14 February 2017 - 09:45 PM, said:

Well as much as LF is consistently mentioned in the thread, TS seems okay playing him.

Rmb the times whereby sunshine spark was like some giant massive rasengan that covers 3/4 of KOF map. Wonder if they will get it back from their awakening

#35 XxXh0lic

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 10:21 PM

View PostLimey, on 14 February 2017 - 09:48 PM, said:

Rmb the times whereby sunshine spark was like some giant massive rasengan that covers 3/4 of KOF map. Wonder if they will get it back from their awakening

Nope. Went on hiatus after 50 cap and came back during 90 cap. I was still overwhelmed by Assassins though but I learned how to deal with them eventually. I did hear LF was pretty hated by other classes in pvp then but I didn't get to experience his reign of terror.

#36 Alaron

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 12:11 AM

One thing to always remember in such discussions, is that each and every class is capable of great arsholery. It will be difficult to objectively gauge overpoweredness by arguments of hypothetical specific situations alone.

One thing we can gauge though, is the difficulty of playing the class. An easy way to see this is by the popularity of the class. Increasing frequency, bar extraordinary short burst events like a new update on a class (like Awakenings), that somehow persist over time is a good indicator of ease of play. And ease of play would usually also mean that such a class might have a substantial advantage over other classes.

This is easy to see over time of observation, really.

Edited by Alaron, 15 February 2017 - 12:11 AM.


#37 Kuru

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 07:24 AM

View Postbooyah, on 14 February 2017 - 08:20 PM, said:

Guys Guys, we are straying off the topic, Ripper isn't an underwhelming class nor an OP class (can be kited). Case closed.

Summarizing on what the weakest class is:

Light Fury.
Low HP, Low Dmg, Requires you to catch opponents multiple times to bring their HP down, Requires you to master the Assasin tree(Base job) in order to keep opponents in combo to eventually hit with a mediocre dmg skills that has long cooldowns.
Sunshine spark/Ring Strike requires you to have wasted opponents evades.
Only when you master recatching opponents will you start to win matches. Miss a recatch and you stand to lose a lot of HP from Skill spam of the opponents.

Thats it. All other classes have atleast 1/Many OP skill that can be used to faceroll opponents.

That being said, I'd love to see people master LF and face off against OP Classes. Any Latest 93cap Videos of LF's that do KOF?


I don't know if he does KoF but, "Spiritbomber" from DN NA is the best LF I've seen. This is his twitch
--> https://www.twitch.tv/nomaddn

#38 booyah

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 01:42 PM

That spritbomber went missing when the sunshine spark nerfs hit. Last video was in 2015. (bow)

I've seen only one Bringer loyalist in SW/HW that still plays LF, although he prefers AW more.

Edited by booyah, 15 February 2017 - 02:15 PM.


#39 Kuru

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 01:53 PM

he still streams from time to time. I've tuned in and seen him live still every once and a while, still a good player xD

#40 lutfi91

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 06:52 AM

@booyah

Who is this LF loyalist you speak of? Hehe

Might tune in to this spiritbomber guy.

I actually enjoy LF pvp in dwc now. Its not *that* bad, but not stellar either. I understand there's no awakenings there. Just gotta play the cards right and 100% focus on what skills to use next, anticipatory movements etc etc

@Limey

I like your line of reasoning bud, up top!