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Questions About Da Regardless Skill's Effective In Different Nest Caps


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#1 Terraofdeath

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 01:45 AM

I'm wondering about what to choose between the 10% fd or 15% fire element for DA

Currently i have around 6k5 fd at the moment. And i've read that if you have a capped fd for that certain nest then choosing  15% would be better ?

For example, 15% fire would be better in idn but for 93 nests 10% fd is better ?

I only can affort 1 skill build so i don't know which build should i adjust to tho

Does the 10% fd skill doesn't show up in town anymore ? Because my other char has the same among of fd and showed the same % with my DA using the 10% fd skill

Also, is the 5% additional dmg for critical hit buggy ? Sometimes it doesn't add 5% more damage at all
I choose 5% damage at first because i thought it's better than 10% air skills base on my calculation.

Thank you for reading.

Edited by Terraofdeath, 28 March 2017 - 04:39 AM.


#2 dupminus

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Posted 02 April 2017 - 11:10 PM

Normally , Fire comes first , because ... umm ...

Just think about it , do you dpsing using any other skill than your Avenger tree ? If yes then FD but i doubt any sane player do that because the end result will be ... ugly

If you look it that way , 15% fire will be absolutely better choice ...

About Airborne vs critical , i will pick airborne . Because DA is one of flying class that can constantly airborne . You can control how much time on your flight but you can't control critical which is up to RNGod ...

May RNGod bless you with 100% critical rate ... lol

Conclusion : 15% Fire ; 10% Airborne

Hope this helps

#3 Xenocho

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 12:03 AM

View Postdupminus, on 02 April 2017 - 11:10 PM, said:

Normally , Fire comes first , because ... umm ...

Just think about it , do you dpsing using any other skill than your Avenger tree ? If yes then FD but i doubt any sane player do that because the end result will be ... ugly

If you look it that way , 15% fire will be absolutely better choice ...

If you are unsure, you are better not trying to guide. This explanation does not have any value at all. The proper way to find out is to calculate and determine which is better by comparing the gains after diminishing returns, not anything that you mentioned. FD and Fire works the same way that it affects all skills by 10% and 15% respectively. However, they both have different values due to diminishing returns.

View PostTerraofdeath, on 28 March 2017 - 01:45 AM, said:

I'm wondering about what to choose between the 10% fd or 15% fire element for DA

Currently i have around 6k5 fd at the moment. And i've read that if you have a capped fd for that certain nest then choosing  15% would be better ?

For example, 15% fire would be better in idn but for 93 nests 10% fd is better ?

I only can affort 1 skill build so i don't know which build should i adjust to tho

Does the 10% fd skill doesn't show up in town anymore ? Because my other char has the same among of fd and showed the same % with my DA using the 10% fd skill

Also, is the 5% additional dmg for critical hit buggy ? Sometimes it doesn't add 5% more damage at all
I choose 5% damage at first because i thought it's better than 10% air skills base on my calculation.

Thank you for reading.

Could you provide your total fire attack? Maybe I can give you a better estimate.

Edited by Xenocho, 03 April 2017 - 12:07 AM.


#4 dupminus

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 04:39 PM

View PostXenocho, on 03 April 2017 - 12:03 AM, said:

If you are unsure, you are better not trying to guide. This explanation does not have any value at all. The proper way to find out is to calculate and determine which is better by comparing the gains after diminishing returns, not anything that you mentioned. FD and Fire works the same way that it affects all skills by 10% and 15% respectively. However, they both have different values due to diminishing returns.

Well a proper test is always needed , i only managed to borrow my friend's account that have DA in it because i didn't know that creating spin-off classes needed an event ...

Diminishing Return will come in effect once he properly geared up and entered a certain environment , at this point the only explanation i can give TS is a general idea of situation that normally happens in TS's circumstances and TS's possible PoV which in this case DA , and after using DA for approximately an hour , doing some daily , nest , and  PvP , i began grasp as how should i play this class ...

I know i sucks at explaining but i can give some cent or two if it is regarding melee classes . Thanks .

@TS : after reading so much info about IDN , RuDN , and also Granom , RTKN , RPKN , and 90 Nest , i still really think Fire 15% is the better choice . RuDN has 2 Fire Resist Boss including the Rune Dragon stage which give whooping 30% all elemental resist , which in case FD will be better but that's it . IDN gives Fire attribute better result , and the Returned Old Nests didn't give any elemental resist at all ...

And you won't always play end-game content so if you do another content which is roughly the same as Returned Old Nest , Fire 15% will give you overall better result ...

#5 Xenocho

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 05:14 PM

View Postdupminus, on 03 April 2017 - 04:39 PM, said:

@TS : after reading so much info about IDN , RuDN , and also Granom , RTKN , RPKN , and 90 Nest , i still really think Fire 15% is the better choice . RuDN has 2 Fire Resist Boss including the Rune Dragon stage which give whooping 30% all elemental resist , which in case FD will be better but that's it . IDN gives Fire attribute better result , and the Returned Old Nests didn't give any elemental resist at all ...

And you won't always play end-game content so if you do another content which is roughly the same as Returned Old Nest , Fire 15% will give you overall better result ...

This is what I meant by 'do not give advice if you don't know anything about it.'

Whether you select FD or Fire attack, as long as you use fire element (which for DA is compulsory), you will always have your damage reduced by the resist. It does not matter if you chose FD or Fire Attack.

The method to calculate total stats is this: Physical attack * Fire attack * FD. For the case of 100k patk, 10% fire and 20% FD, the calculation is this: 100,000 * 1.10 * 1.20 = 132,000 total. TS should compare between both and calculate which would give him better. An example is shown below, and I applied the ele resist too just to show you how it would work.

If you select Fire attack:
100,000 * 1.25 * 1.2 = 150,000
Apply ele resist = 150,000 * 0.8 = 120,000

If you select FD:
100,000 * 1.10 * 1.3 = 143,000
Apply ele resist = 143,000 * 0.8 = 114,400.

Melee or range or int or str or agi, it does not matter. The game mechanics are all the same.

Edited by Xenocho, 03 April 2017 - 05:17 PM.


#6 vangeodee

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 11:38 PM

View Postdupminus, on 03 April 2017 - 04:39 PM, said:

....

View PostXenocho, on 03 April 2017 - 05:14 PM, said:

....

You also have to factor in diminishing returns. In the case of classes that can easily reach above 100% element, every percent above 100% will have its actual gain reduced by half. So a 15% increase in Fire % would only result to an actual increase of 7.5%.

I'm not a DA player, but as Xenocho said, (mechanics apply to everything) I'd say the decision between FD and element % would largely be influenced by the gears OP has at the moment. In my classes that employ a base element, I'm well geared enough where I'd have bigger gains from 10% FD rather than 15% element.

Edited by vangeodee, 03 April 2017 - 11:39 PM.


#7 Terraofdeath

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 02:17 AM

Hello guys, thanks for the replies and sorry for the late respond


View PostXenocho, on 03 April 2017 - 12:03 AM, said:

Could you provide your total fire attack? Maybe I can give you a better estimate.

Yes, my full buff fire attack is 124.4% , i chose the 10% fd

And yeah, i've been having a hard time trying to figure out the path between 10% fd and 15% fire

Dimishing returns, it applies to every value that reaches over 100% and

I current have 400k atk in town with 6k2 fd, can change to 382k atk to increase fd to 6k6 which give 100% fd in idn right ?
But then, with 100% fd, using the 10% fd will not be as effective. But that only applies for idn case, an old raid it seems

Edited by Terraofdeath, 04 April 2017 - 02:18 AM.


#8 Xenocho

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 08:27 AM

Diminishing returns actually starts from any value above 0. Imagine this: you have 1 apple and get 1 more. The total gain of apples is double or 100%. However when you have 10 apples and get 1 more, the total gain of apples is only 10% despite the same amount added. This is diminishing returns where you get lesser due to the values you already have.

Just to add on more proper calculations showing diminishing returns (I had probably done this in previous threads too)

1) Adding 10% FD to a char with 0% gear FD (Atk 100,000):
Effective ATK without 10% FD: 100,000 * (1 + 0.0 ) = 100,000
Effective ATK with 10% FD: 100,000 * (1 + 0.1) = 110,000
Actual gain: 110,000/100,000 = 10%

2) Adding 10% FD to a char with 50% gear FD (Atk 100,000):
Effective ATK without 10% FD: 100,000 * (1 + 0.5 ) = 150,000
Effective ATK with 10% FD: 100,000 * (1 + 0.5 + 0.1) = 160,000
Actual gain: 160,000/150,000 = 6.67% (as opposed to the actual 10% added)

Due to the amount of FD you have, the actual gain received is reduced.

Edited by Xenocho, 04 April 2017 - 08:55 AM.


#9 Vahnjen

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 11:03 PM

 Xenocho, on 04 April 2017 - 08:27 AM, said:

Diminishing returns actually starts from any value above 0. Imagine this: you have 1 apple and get 1 more. The total gain of apples is double or 100%. However when you have 10 apples and get 1 more, the total gain of apples is only 10% despite the same amount added. This is diminishing returns where you get lesser due to the values you already have.

Just to add on more proper calculations showing diminishing returns (I had probably done this in previous threads too)

1) Adding 10% FD to a char with 0% gear FD (Atk 100,000):
Effective ATK without 10% FD: 100,000 * (1 + 0.0 ) = 100,000
Effective ATK with 10% FD: 100,000 * (1 + 0.1) = 110,000
Actual gain: 110,000/100,000 = 10%

2) Adding 10% FD to a char with 50% gear FD (Atk 100,000):
Effective ATK without 10% FD: 100,000 * (1 + 0.5 ) = 150,000
Effective ATK with 10% FD: 100,000 * (1 + 0.5 + 0.1) = 160,000
Actual gain: 160,000/150,000 = 6.67% (as opposed to the actual 10% added)

Due to the amount of FD you have, the actual gain received is reduced.

Deym this is a very good explanation to what diminishing return really is. I salute you sir for this awesome analogy. With this many people which doesn't understand the game's mechanics in depth will be informed.

#10 Naos

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Posted 09 April 2017 - 08:26 AM

Since you said that you have 100% FD, the amount of fire you would have to stack for the same effectiveness of both passives can be calculated by this equation:

(x+0.15)*2.0 = 2.1x

solution: 3 (100% + 200%)

So, it means that, if you managed to stack exactly 200% fire, both fire and FD passives will benefit you by the same amount. If you have less than 200% fire, then fire passive is better.

Proof (200% fire and 100% FD):

(Fire Passive) 100,000 * 3.15 * 2.0 = 630,000

(FD Passive)  100,000 * 3.0 * 2.1 = 630,000

Calculating with the stats you provided (124.4% fire and 100% FD):

(Fire Passive) 100,000 * (2.244 + 0.15) * 2.0 = 478,800 (Better)

(FD Passive) 100,000 * 2.244 * 2.1 = 471,240

You should have taken fire passive for lvl 90 content.



Now let's check lvl 93 content:

Since you said that you can reach 6.6k FD, that means ~ 60% FD for lvl 93 content.

The new equation to determine the point of equivalence between fire and FD passives will be like this:

(x+ 0.15)*1.6 = 1.7x

Solution: 2.4 (100% + 140%)

So, it means that, if you have 140% fire, then both passives have the same effectiveness in lvl 93 content.

Proof (140% fire and 60% FD):

(Fire passive) 100,000 * 2.55 * 1.6 = 408,000

(FD Passive) 100,000 * 2.4 * 1.7 =  408,000


Calculating with the stats you provided (124.4% Fire and 60% FD):

(Fire Passive) 100,000 * (2.244 +0.15) * 1.6 = 383,040 (Better)

(FD Passive) 100,000 * 2,244 * 1.7 = 381,480

You should have taken fire passive for lvl 93 content as well.


Credits to Innocentuz for the equation.

#11 Terraofdeath

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 11:33 AM

View PostNaos, on 09 April 2017 - 08:26 AM, said:



Thank you very much. (oo) (hat)