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Elemental %


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#1 Artionm

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Posted 18 April 2017 - 12:56 PM

Hello everyone, currently with my dark avenger, after using my fire buff i reach around 126% of fire element yet, I've heard from some people that going to 100% element further doesn't worth and i should stay at 100% and raise more my p.attack. Is that true? or should i keep my fire % at that level?. Thanks in advance

#2 Xenocho

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Posted 18 April 2017 - 12:59 PM

Higher and higher fire makes the gain become lesser. Search diminishing returns on the forums for more elaboration.

Calculate patk*ele and see which gives higher value

E.g. 100k patk 50% fire = 100,000 * 1.5

Edited by Xenocho, 18 April 2017 - 01:02 PM.


#3 Nihilism

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Posted 01 May 2017 - 05:18 PM

Yeahh... I suggest you stay around that number. There are other stats that you can be maxing such as fd (rich peeps yes I know) hp and stuffs

#4 Xenocho

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 07:11 PM

View PostMike1Toreno, on 22 May 2017 - 06:57 PM, said:

Elements are best utilized for the Sorceress,Cleric classes MGC.
If ELE cam affect ur Warrior STR or PHY ATK is unclear.
There are two basic ATK/DEF  attributes for all classes that is
MGC and PHY.

This is inaccurate.

Everything is clear with calculations as I have demonstrated above. Please do not go around spreading misinformation.

#5 vangeodee

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Posted 23 May 2017 - 02:42 AM

View PostMike1Toreno, on 22 May 2017 - 06:57 PM, said:

-snipped because cancer inducing-

No.

Xenocho has given a very good explanation on how ATK stats relate to elemental %.

On the other hand, I'd suggest you go and experiment for yourself. I've done them, and as far as I can tell, there is no conceivable difference between the two setups (element% vs atk%).

In my case, I prefer to just leave my DA with x3 fire and x1 destruction, simply because transferring 4 jades every time I use him is a hassle. Though the basic ATK*ELE% computation would yield a higher result from using an elemental jade, that is definitely not the case. The difference I get from the two setups could easily be attributed to a number of factors, the most prominent would be the ATK stat range which varies by a very significant amount.

Hi, I did some math and research on the matter of ELE% and FD, and although the actual computations are a lot more lengthy and complicated, here's a basic breakdown:

If we take 100% ELE% to give out x2 or 200% (100%+ELE%) of normal damage, and assume that x is your regular PATK.

DMG = x * (100%+ELE%) = x * (1+ELE) ; ELE - is ELE% in fraction form

and growth expressed as

Quote

g = (ELE% to be added)/(original ELE%) ; if we say you have 110% now, and want to add 8, it becomes g = (8/210)

So here's the thing, if we assume you have 126% atm, removing 1 fire jade gives you around 118%. That leaves you with 3 fire jades and 1 slot left for another fire or destruction.

If you use the destruction jade (4.5% to PATK):



PATK = x * 1.045
growth  = (PATK - x) / x = ( x * 0.045) / x = 0.045 or 4.5%



From this, we can see that destruction jades will ALWAYS give 4.5% regardless of your current PATK. Now let's examine 118% fire and adding 8% with another fire jade:

g  = 8% / (100% + 118%) = 8% / 218%
g = 0.03669 or 3.7%


From that, we'll see that with 118% existing fire, stacking more fire% nets you less gain than stacking PATK via destruction. However, the difference is a meager 0.8% which is hardly anything tangible, but if you're looking for efficiency, then go for that 0.8%

So now that leaves the question, mathematically speaking at what % element should I begin to stack PATK than more of a certain element? The layman's answer is 100%, however if we examine 100%

g = 8% / (100%+100%) = 8% / 20)%
g = 0.04 or 4%

Which is still less than 4.5% given by the destruction jade.

Mathematically, 77.78% is the absolute effective limit of ELE% stacking, anything more than that would yield lesser gains than PATK stacking.

g = 8 / (100+77.78)
g = 0.04499 or 4.499

So does this mean I should stop using elemental jades if I have more than 80% of my own element? I'm not sure, since this is an overly simplified method, I doubt this is exactly how the game mechanics work. But these computations do conform to some of my experiments where I tried going down to as low as 96% dark for raven and still seeing no considerable difference between an additional dark jade and a destruction jade.

Edited by vangeodee, 23 May 2017 - 02:03 PM.


#6 Zaetak

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Posted 23 May 2017 - 12:56 PM

View PostMike1Toreno, on 22 May 2017 - 06:58 PM, said:

-- cancer

-- this ningen clearly don't know that DA is an elemental class.

Edited by Zaetak, 23 May 2017 - 12:56 PM.


#7 Naos

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Posted 25 May 2017 - 08:42 AM

View Postvangeodee, on 23 May 2017 - 02:42 AM, said:

From this, we can see that destruction jades will ALWAYS give 4.5% regardless of your current PATK. Now let's examine 118% fire and adding 8% with another fire jade:


This is a very dangerous affirmation. Especially because destruction jades are not the only source of attack % in your Gear.

If what you say is true, then all attk % from our gear should act multiplicatively between each other, instead of additively.

Let's make an experiment to see whitch hipotesis is true.

I'll use Grief-Stricken title for this experiment, because it gives a flat 1000 atk and all other stats don't interfere with your attk power.

If we had 0% attk power from gears and skill passives, we should see an increase of 1000 attack power after using grief-Stricken. Every additional attack we see is due to the attk power % we managed to stack and we will be able to calculate it.

First with Grief-Stricken:
Posted Image

Without Grief-Stricken:
Posted Image

404924 - 403178 = 1746

A total of 74.6% extra attack power.

My gears that increases attk %  are: double genesis rings, destruction Heraldry, 1.7% spirit, racing helm, racing boots, racing main weapon with 1% engraving, racing sub-weapon with 1% engraving, cold mirage wings and cold mirage full set attk bonus.

Total: 58.7% attk power increase.

As a Blade Dancer I also have 10% attk from class mastery which increases total attack power and does act as a new multiplier:


So 1000(Flat attk from Grief-Stricken) * 1.587(Attk% from my Gear) = 1587
1587 * 1.1(10% from my Class Mastery) = 1745.7


If your statement was true, then each attk% from my gears should multiply again and the equation would be like this:

1000 * 1.05 * 1.05 * 1.1 * 1.017 * 1.08 * 1.07 * 1.07 * 1.04 * 1.03 * 1.08 * 1.1(class mastery) = 1940.75

As we can see with this experiment, gear attk% works in the same "layer" of multiplication and therefore, should be added between each other, and not multiplied.

So your statement is false, and attk power % actually suffers from diminishing returns as well.




Now let's see how much of each stat (element and attk power %) we should stack to have the same effectiveness of both destruction and element jades.

First using my attk %, which is actually 64.7%, since I normally use Jackard's Demise title. How much Element should I stack to have the same effectiveness of both Jades?

x =  Element before Jade use

(x + 0.086) * 1.647 = (Situation where I use a legend element jade)

1.692x = (Situation where I use a legend Destruction jade)

So the equation to determine the point of equivalence will be like this:

(x + 0.086) * 1.647 = 1.692x

Solution: 3.1476

Source: http://www.wolframal...*1.647 = 1.692x


This result means that, if i have 214.76% element and 64.7% attk power, then element jade and destruction jade will have the same effect. Let's calculate with these stats just to be sure:

(Element jade) 1000 * 1.647 * 3.2336 = 5325,8

(Destruction Jade) 1000 * 1.692 * 3.1476 = 5325,8

Destruction jade will be better only if I stack more than 214.76% element, which is just insane.



Now let's check your point of equivalence using your current 118% fire:

x = Attk % before Jade use

(x + 0.045) * 2.18 = (Situation where you use Destruction Jade)

2.266x = (Situation where you use legend fire Jade)

So your equation will be like this:

(x + 0.045) * 2,18 = 2.266x

Solution: 1.1407

Source: http://www.wolframal...)*2.18 = 2.266x


This result means that Destruction jade will be more effective only if you have less than 14.07% attk power from your gears. Which could easily be achieved even if you are not rich. With 50g, you can buy a destruction heraldry. And, with a little bit of luck, you can get teary-eyed or Teardrop titles.

Calculating with this stats just to be sure (14.07% attk and 118% fire)

(Destruction Jade) 1000 * 1.1857 * 2.18 = 2584,8

(Fire Jade) 1000 * 1.1407 * 2.266 = 2584,8

Edited by Naos, 25 May 2017 - 08:47 AM.


#8 Xenocho

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Posted 25 May 2017 - 09:08 AM

Something relevant I did in another thread

View PostXenocho, on 24 May 2017 - 10:33 AM, said:


Yes, diminishing affects as well.

If you have all the jades in hand, you may do the calculations as mentioned above.

At 130% ele, dest jades may be stronger. However, if you have dual genesis rings, the strength of dest jades reduces slightly due to diminishing patk % bonus from dual gen rings.

Assuming 130% ele is with 4 ele jades, so 0 ele jade is 95.6% (assuming you use all L at 8.6% each)
Assuming you have 63.1% patk % from dual gen ring (10%), full cash costume (24%), rudn title (6.5%), sadnyth (11%), spirit (1.6%), dest plate (10%).

The rough calculation can be shown below (which may not be entirely accurate, just an estimation):
Posted Image

If you refer to the table, you can see that ele is still stronger. this is most likely due to double %  on jades vs dest %. if total % patk was 0, maybe dest will be comparable to ele. however, you get a lot of atk % from costumes, so dest also suffers a degree of diminishing returns.


#9 vangeodee

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Posted 25 May 2017 - 01:00 PM

View PostNaos, on 25 May 2017 - 08:42 AM, said:

-snip-

View PostXenocho, on 25 May 2017 - 09:08 AM, said:

-snip

Well, I stand corrected then.

My example was assuming that there was 0% base ATK% and with x amt ATK in place. I suppose oversimplification has its downfalls.

#10 Jskidz

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Posted 25 May 2017 - 05:23 PM

Lol~~~ Why make this so complicated when it is just very simple maths. Just calculate your total atk % from gear and multiply the element %, then just take the highest one (Xenocho mention it). Is simple

#11 SorceressHater

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Posted 26 May 2017 - 07:19 AM

View PostJskidz, on 25 May 2017 - 05:23 PM, said:

Lol~~~ Why make this so complicated when it is just very simple maths. Just calculate your total atk % from gear and multiply the element %, then just take the highest one (Xenocho mention it). Is simple

ok