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The Dps Tier List On Rudnhc (Dn Ver 246) Under Construction


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#41 mousinNnR

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 08:19 PM

View PostMuchAshe, on 08 July 2017 - 08:09 PM, said:

Swordmasters are both equally strong, DA is stronger.

I dont want to be disrespectful, but if your first sentence is this, i dont feel like reading the rest because its absolutely wrong.

#42 MuchAshe

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 08:22 PM

View PostmousinNnR, on 08 July 2017 - 08:19 PM, said:

I dont want to be disrespectful, but if your first sentence is this, i dont feel like reading the rest because its absolutely wrong.

I figured people would disagree with it. No offense taken, that's why I am saying that it's difficult to create such a list.

#43 ChellyChi

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 08:32 PM

View PostBoxhead, on 08 July 2017 - 08:16 PM, said:



Spoiler

Well, i dont want to find unnecessary problems to deal with.
All i wanted was a healthy forum discussion but it ended up with idk half of the players being upset.
Are Sea forumers really this incapable of discussing topic related to dps?

#44 sngweiwei

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 08:41 PM

View PostChellyChi, on 08 July 2017 - 08:32 PM, said:

Are Sea forumers really this incapable of discussing topic related to dps?

"There is no best dps, just play the class you enjoy!"

Yes.

Edited by sngweiwei, 08 July 2017 - 08:46 PM.


#45 soulcrush

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 08:42 PM

View PostChellyChi, on 08 July 2017 - 08:32 PM, said:

Well, i dont want to find unnecessary problems to deal with.
All i wanted was a healthy forum discussion but it ended up with idk half of the players being upset.
Are Sea forumers really this incapable of discussing topic related to dps?

For me though I can't join and share my own data since I have not even finished rudn hc yet. And even though I could agree with my class in that tier, I really want to prove it wrong.

And majority of strong people here in WW are just playing for gold to real money so.... (:D)

Edited by soulcrush, 08 July 2017 - 08:44 PM.


#46 FirePhoenix

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 08:47 PM

View PostMuchAshe, on 08 July 2017 - 08:09 PM, said:

Crusader should be higher if we are talking about endgame gear, as his scaling is absolutely insane.
Many people said this but I don't get the reason why crus is strong at endgame gear. In the end, we all max FD, max crit, max CTD. What scaling you talking about? Stat scaling? 30% INT and STR is not impressive to me. Crus mainly stacking INT, so his STR is low, therefore 30% STR is unnoticeable. Furthermore, his main stat is INT, but only get +30% INT. Not that better than those main 1 stat and get +50%.

#47 sngweiwei

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 08:56 PM

View PostFirePhoenix, on 08 July 2017 - 08:47 PM, said:

Many people said this but I don't get the reason why crus is strong at endgame gear. In the end, we all max FD, max crit, max CTD. What scaling you talking about? Stat scaling? 30% INT and STR is not impressive to me. Crus mainly stacking INT, so his STR is low, therefore 30% STR is unnoticeable. Furthermore, his main stat is INT, but only get +30% INT. Not that better than those main 1 stat and get +50%.

And the fact that JP gets wiped, and the CD is long too. That's a loss of quite a bit of dps too.

If only Lv90 gears and beyond still had 3 jades slot eh?

Edited by sngweiwei, 08 July 2017 - 08:57 PM.


#48 MuchAshe

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 08:58 PM

View PostFirePhoenix, on 08 July 2017 - 08:47 PM, said:

Many people said this but I don't get the reason why crus is strong at endgame gear. In the end, we all max FD, max crit, max CTD. What scaling you talking about? Stat scaling? 30% INT and STR is not impressive to me. Crus mainly stacking INT, so his STR is low, therefore 30% STR is unnoticeable. Furthermore, his main stat is INT, but only get +30% INT. Not that better than those main 1 stat and get +50%.

The reason I talk about scaling is that Crus benefits as you pointed out from INT and STR, MAtk and PAtk, which means that basically all costumes give him double of what it would give to other classes. Genesis Rings give STR, INT, MAtk and PAtk, everything is useful, etc etc. That's what I mean when I say good scaling.
From personal experience I'd say that Crus should be higher in the list as I saw them do DPS that can compete with A tier classes.

#49 SwiperDaFox

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 09:20 PM

View PostmousinNnR, on 08 July 2017 - 08:19 PM, said:

I dont want to be disrespectful, but if your first sentence is this, i dont feel like reading the rest because its absolutely wrong.

Well everyone has a different opinion about it. I also think that DA is the strongest warrior atm and that gladiator and moonlord are kinda equal. When we actually look at it its obvious that moonlord is ahead at the first two bars but at the last two bars gladiator is ahead because of FA which puts both of them kinda equal in the end. But thats just my opinion about it maybe someone has a better explantion about it.

#50 sngweiwei

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 09:56 PM

View PostSwiperDaFox, on 08 July 2017 - 09:20 PM, said:

Well everyone has a different opinion about it. I also think that DA is the strongest warrior atm and that gladiator and moonlord are kinda equal. When we actually look at it its obvious that moonlord is ahead at the first two bars but at the last two bars gladiator is ahead because of FA which puts both of them kinda equal in the end. But thats just my opinion about it maybe someone has a better explantion about it.

6s MBD CD combined with reducing the CD of Smash X just by spamming.
Eclipse awakening (1036% per tornado?)  is just so good. A +2 to Eclipse gives it a 7 second CD at 1220% per tornado...
Its easier and faster to land full Smash X hits compared to glad's hyper drive.

IMO, I think ML's dps is better than glad overall due how fast the dmg from ML poops out.

#51 Xenocho

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 09:56 PM

View PostMuchAshe, on 08 July 2017 - 08:09 PM, said:

Alright then, please remember this is my personal opinion:

Swordmasters are both equally strong, DA is stronger.
- Agreed
Hellfire Seleana and Mara should be above the others in Rank S, probably have their own tier.
- Agreed
Artillery should be lower, the only strong point she has was dmg xfer, this was fixed in EU, not sure about other servers.
- In regards to this, is Arti not stronger because of the Fatal Cannonade dealing 13k% oper 5s?
Crusader should be higher if we are talking about endgame gear, as his scaling is absolutely insane.
- I agree with Crus gear being insanely high endgame. However, do their skill damage keep up with other tiers to ensure high DPS?
Silver Hunter should be higher.
- How does SH compare in general, if you can give numbers?
Gear Master should get into it's own tier of absolute fishing garbage.
- Partially agree with this one. From nests, it's pretty much hell mainly because bosses move around, but in Rune HC, they move to a lesser extent. I hope to be able to try it out one day to confirm it.
Physician should be higher, can definitely compete with a lot of DPS classes easily.
- Similar to SH, could you rate it relative?
Light Fury should atleast be higher than fishing Gear Master and Sting Breezer.
- No comment
Barb is better than Ruina, Ruina is just too hard to judge and noone plays it.
- I agree Ruina is hard to judge, but theoretically, should be stronger than Defensio if the player knows how to play right? Also, can share some feedback about Barb?
Arch Heretic should be a little higher, not sure how high tho.
-  No comment too (hoping for some Arch Heretic to share some info)
Sniper should be higher, even if it's just a bit.
- Agreed. Slightly higher than Artillery

Also there should probably be a healer tier, cause if party sucks ass, then Saint, LF and Phys aren't gonna be able to unleash their full DPS potential.
- Agreed, but maybe this can be added to their description in general, where their jobs are healing. If not for focusing on healing, then yes, the DPS tier will be more accurate.
I'll address this first because it caught my attention.

It would be probably easier for me to comment in the quote itself, hope you find it easier to read too.

The main reason for questions are for further understanding of your choices, that's all. My guild lack several players so I wish to learn more about them from your opinion ^^

#52 Xenocho

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 10:07 PM

Addressing second comment, sorry for double post if it was. (Will not do anymore repeats after this)

View PostReyZha7, on 08 July 2017 - 06:48 PM, said:

tbh i kinda hate this kind of thread, i'm scared people will bandwagon and there are less variation of people who has different classes

but i will tell my opinion for this

Arch heretic
Dps - B
Difficulty - Intermediate
i think this one counted in advanced difficulty, cause so much skill can be linked and most of them are close range, even until now i can't use my AH properly
- Interesting remark on this. It is worth considering. I hope more AH players can share their experience and masteries.

Black mara
Dps - S
Difficulty - Advanced
for this i think it's intermediate difficulty, i didn't have a hard time to learn her rotation, with a defense buff and invincible healing it shouldn't hard to use her for facing boss directly
- Errr, Mara is very strong. If you are not the top tier DPS in your party with Mara, you may not be doing the right thing. It's not just about rotation and defense buff and i-frame healing, but rather about skill optimisation. Doing the rotation in the minimum amount of time, not wasting any time in untransformed mode and squeezing as much DPS as possible, that is the difficult mastery. Therefore, it can be said Mara's skill mastery is advance because it can DPS without mastery, but with mastery, DPS skyrockets even higher.

Dark summoner
Dps - A
Difficulty - Intermediate
agree with this need proper controlling for maximum burst damage, need cast a lot of buff too
- No comment

Ruina
Dps- B
Difficulty- Advanced
i think it's in A(?) or atleast AB, with that boost knuckle gear she can inherit damage from skill and hit enemy with maximum 7-12 hit if i remember
- The thing is, strong, but because no one has ever shown it to be that strong, no one dares to give it a very high rating. I have analysed Ruina theoretically, and am amazed. However, when I tried to pull it off, I can't do it. In fact, there has almost been no top tier Ruina video around, especially for Rune 8 man HC for us to confidently rate it.

Flurry
Dps - A-
Difficulty - Intermediate
Sting Breezer
Dps - B-
Difficulty - Intermediate
tbh the one make these 2 different is Flurry had spinning scewer, even it has low percentage for vulnerable if you hit the enemy a lot you can make the enemy got vulnerabled a lot=more burst damage
- Your comment is precisely why flurry has a higher tier. SB is setup reliant and can go wrong if you didn't plan it right.
Thank you for sharing, I have made comments within the post itself. Hope its easier for you to read this way too. Anyway, the comments are not rebuttals but rather, my thoughts, whether they agree with yours or not.

I think sharing knowledge is not wrong, and bandwagoning is not necessarily wrong. There's no right and wrong in playing a game unless you are doing something immoral or against the rules.

#53 sngweiwei

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 10:10 PM

For barb's case, you better pray that ultimate circle swing crits, otherwise your dps takes a dent.

The other barb skills are too slow imo.

Edited by sngweiwei, 08 July 2017 - 10:11 PM.


#54 MuchAshe

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 10:45 PM

View PostXenocho, on 08 July 2017 - 09:56 PM, said:

I'll address this first because it caught my attention.

It would be probably easier for me to comment in the quote itself, hope you find it easier to read too.

The main reason for questions are for further understanding of your choices, that's all. My guild lack several players so I wish to learn more about them from your opinion ^^

Sword Master + DA: Actually surprised you agree, but glad I'm not alone with my stance.

OP Sorcs: +

The strong point of Arti was to be able to transfer that damage onto multiple other skills, which apparently has only been fixed in EU, after asking around a bit more. You'll need some Arti in SEA to check that out. Cannonade does of course still do good damage, but that's about it.

Crusader is hard to judge for me too, but there is one in EU who keeps pulling extremely good DPS with lower gear than absolute top tier, I'm not sure how much of that is due to the zap dmg xfer bug, so can't really comment too much on it. I'll just say that from doing a ton of carry runs and a good amount of RuDN HC, I feel like the class could definitely compete with most A tier classes in the current list.

As for SH, there isn't a lot of geared SH players, and due the the class being very buggy overall I think it's hard to judge it's full potential. I currently do not have a party for my own SH, working on getting one tho. The only real post I found is this one, which doesn't really say too much. I'd say SH is definitely below Sniper and xfer Arti, equal to WW and Tempest and above non-bugged Arti. Assuming her bugs get fixed, mostly the ones where skills do no damage at all, I feel like she will outclass Acros.

As for GM in RuDN HC, you are right. The bosses there are a lot more forgiving, but I still don't feel like the class has a lot of damage potential as of right now. Then again I haven't seen any actually geared GMs for quite a while now, so who knows. I might be completely wrong about this one.

I would say Phys is the second/third strongest loli (not counting RM as it isn't released for either of us), definitely below Adept and above GM. Comparing to SS is difficult, I'd say maximising your damage on Phys is a lot easier than SS, due to the nature of the skills being easier to execute. Looking at her ranking she just feels out of place next to Guard, GM, etc. I'd bump her up to atleast B tier.

Does no comment for the LF mean you disagree or you just can't comment on it?

For Ruina, there is basically only two people in EU playing the class and neither of them have been able to impress me. Videos of the class always look fun, but I've never been like: "Woah, that's some good damage!"
As for Barb, currently bugged in EU, but previously we had Nindja, who has been playing Merc since 40 cap, doing decent numbers, I'd say B tier for sure, but I feel like there are more tiers needed overall, cause Barb definitely can't keep up with all B tier classes, but should easily be above all B- ones.

Arch Heretic: +

Sniper: +

Healing Tier: My main issue is that when I look at for example LF players, the plates are like Cure, Energy, Miracle, Heal. All CD. How can a full support plated char even compare to DPS classes. I know that going DPS LF with Ring Strike, Sunshine Spark, Line of Darkness and Piercing Star plates is not a good option for a raid, but it should be considered that people do it to have a fair tier list.


I hope that explains my thoughts a little bit, if you'd like anything more specific just point it out. And thanks for not just saying "You are wrong.", means a lot.

#55 Xenocho

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 11:13 PM

@MuchAshe, sorry I forgot to quote your post to notify you on the reply.

The CDN forums do discuss between Glad and ML quite a lot. It was common consensus that ML is strong but is limited by its CD. However, Glad does not have that limit and the pilot skills can push the overall DPS to be better than ML. Of course, Glad's main powerhouse is still FA, but a good pilot would ensure that the Glad is not totally useless before 50%. Also, I have a Glad player in my teams which have been showing outstanding performance despite having different gears to support the CDN claims.

On Arti, I've not been able to confirm it so I was wondering about your side. This could be open for others to discuss.

For Crusader, I'm still quite open if anyone could show their DPS relative to the others.  From SEA, I've heard otherwise of how Crusaders have bugs which nerf them instead. I don't think we have accounted for the use of bugs in this list but it would be helpful to confirm if the A tier DPS is due to the dmg xfer bug.

Hmmm, the SH does look quite promising, and yea, I agree that the bugs are a big hindrance. I look forward to hear your experience on SH once you found a party on that.

In regards to the Phys part, perhaps I will double check on that. Theoretically looks impressive, but personally I've not been able to grasp Phys well as DPS. I'll leave this open to discussion meanwhile work on improving DPS to see if she can outdo GM (mine does not so far).

For the no comment on LF, I can't say for sure. Like you said, no normal raid would bring an LF geared for DPS, so maybe their potential is slightly nerfed. I have seen ok-ish DPS from LF in Rune, but I can't compare to GM and SB because both almost non-existent in raids. Plus, the LF with ok-ish DPS role was a healer, so it's not fair to completely downplay its potential DPS.

For  your comment on Ruina, do you share the same sentiments as Defensio? Where would you put the Ruina in tiers?

I agree with splitting up to more tiers. However, one problem is that the lack of information for comparison makes it hard to group classes together. The whole tier list idea is quite overwhelming and can create more drama, but we should look past that and try to make something representable of the current meta. Overall, it appears most are 'ok' from these few comments you have made so far. And lastly, I thank you for sharing your input and putting effort in this too.

Edited by Xenocho, 08 July 2017 - 11:15 PM.


#56 MuchAshe

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 11:49 PM

View PostXenocho, on 08 July 2017 - 11:13 PM, said:

For  your comment on Ruina, do you share the same sentiments as Defensio? Where would you put the Ruina in tiers?

Defensio seems to be stronger in terms of damage than Ruina since the changes. I'd put Offensio is the B tier and Ruina in the B- tier from what I know right now.

View PostXenocho, on 08 July 2017 - 11:13 PM, said:

For Crusader, I'm still quite open if anyone could show their DPS relative to the others.  From SEA, I've heard otherwise of how Crusaders have bugs which nerf them instead. I don't think we have accounted for the use of bugs in this list but it would be helpful to confirm if the A tier DPS is due to the dmg xfer bug.

I've asked the Crusader about this, he said he isn't sure how much it effects the overall damage, but he personally thinks that due to DA the class can keep up. Pizza, suction, breath etc are all free DPS windows for him. Maybe there are some SEA Crusaders who can give some additional input on this.



And yes, definitely agree. The list overall is pretty accurate. There is no S tier class I'd place in B- or something similar. Usually movements are up or down one tier.

Edited by MuchAshe, 08 July 2017 - 11:49 PM.


#57 ReyZha7

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 11:52 PM

Quote

Black mara
Dps - S
Difficulty - Advanced
for this i think it's intermediate difficulty, i didn't have a hard time to learn her rotation, with a defense buff and invincible healing it shouldn't hard to use her for facing boss directly
- Errr, Mara is very strong. If you are not the top tier DPS in your party with Mara, you may not be doing the right thing. It's not just about rotation and defense buff and i-frame healing, but rather about skill optimisation. Doing the rotation in the minimum amount of time, not wasting any time in untransformed mode and squeezing as much DPS as possible, that is the difficult mastery. Therefore, it can be said Mara's skill mastery is advance because it can DPS without mastery, but with mastery, DPS skyrockets even higher.
yes, i just pointed their advantage for being invincible and high defense for tanking. If it taking the DPS to their maximum potential i just :
>use skills to gather Mara bubble and the skill bubble(forgot the name, the 10 bubble stack things)
>use the ground skill before transformation so even if you transformed your Mara bubble on't decrease quickly
>transfrom > use skills for max dps
sorry i don't write much, but theoritically it's something like that (:D)
but overall i agree with skyrocket dps with mastery (cool)

Ruina
Dps- B
Difficulty- Advanced
i think it's in A(?) or atleast AB, with that boost knuckle gear she can inherit damage from skill and hit enemy with maximum 7-12 hit if i remember
- The thing is, strong, but because no one has ever shown it to be that strong, no one dares to give it a very high rating. I have analysed Ruina theoretically, and am amazed. However, when I tried to pull it off, I can't do it. In fact, there has almost been no top tier Ruina video around, especially for Rune 8 man HC for us to confidently rate it.
the reason why i didn't use Ruina cause it's lack evasion, unlike Defensio who had Repair
once Ruina use her AE she's basically easy target once you knock her down again
but in damage comparison of course Ruina is better cause she is DPS, Defensio is Burst Damage with her 4x bomb
if something is wrong or seems off please fix it, i just take these from my experience playing these class

#58 ChellyChi

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Posted 09 July 2017 - 12:06 AM

View PostReyZha7, on 08 July 2017 - 11:52 PM, said:

if something is wrong or seems off please fix it, i just take these from my experience playing these class

Actually all the above DPS list is using RUDNHC as the medium.
The reason why we left it at B ranking is due to her ability which is pretty vulnerable like you said.
Or is there any evidence / video/ pictures to further prove your point? To be really honest i lack of this class source since nobody plays it at all, :/

#59 Xenocho

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Posted 09 July 2017 - 12:07 AM

View PostReyZha7, on 08 July 2017 - 11:52 PM, said:

if something is wrong or seems off please fix it, i just take these from my experience playing these class

Sort of correct, but the bubble management is important. You want to make sure you don't spend too much time in BM mode that you need to waste contract to collect back bubbles to transform. The worst is that if you have to waste Insult to get back contract just to get enough bubbles to transform. Insult's contract gain 'should' purely be used for Contract Spam in BM (Transformed) mode.

About the Defensio part, if you are playing Offensio like many do these days, Repair will rarely be available for i-frame or emergency though. So far there is no proof from me to show that Ruina is superior to Defensio.

On topic, maybe if we would like to share that a class can deal decent DPS, screenshots such as below can provide good evidence. It would be a decent comparison if gear levels are similar. Below is an example of a Saleana with Hellfire with full Rune L gear and why they are in S or maybe S+ tier:
Posted Image

The screenshot above also compares an Adept with similar gear, maybe lacking a few INT talis while the ML is at 80%+ FD

Edited by Xenocho, 09 July 2017 - 12:13 AM.


#60 MuchAshe

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Posted 09 July 2017 - 01:45 AM

Posted Image

Just to show a little of that Physician power. I had both RuDN L Weapons and the other members one weapon at max or still IDN L, I also have capped FD compared to 70-100% between the other members. I know my gear here is better, but just to show that Phys isn't that far off.